response 11 of 54:

Jul 3 20:21 UTC 1999

I heard the same story about the race car driver.  One thing that really
struck me was when he mentioned praying he wouldn't get into a crash - less
because he didn't want to be injured, and more because if he needed medical
attention they'd notice he was wearing panties.  Probably the best description
I've heard of how frightened people are at the thought of being 'discovered'.

I guess I went through a phase similar to what you're going through a while
ago.  (Oops - in _my_ case it was a phase.  I'm not passing judgement on what
it's like in your case.  You know what I mean...).  In fact, I think there's
still and item in this conference that I entered as a pseudo back when 'being
found out', even by a group I knew would be sympathetic, was terrifying; and
that helped a little, and talking with other people online helped a little,
but what finally helped the most was realizing that there was someone I knew
in 'real life' who I could talk to about it, and who knew me well enough in
real life to be able to give good advice.  
I would never in a million years have discussed this with my family either,
and my family is pretty open-minded.  Do you have any good friends who you
can trust to be sympathetic about this one?

response 13 of 54:

Jul 4 16:26 UTC 1999

        He could've thought of a plausible excuse - something appropriately
macho - like, if he were not married, that as a "good luck charm" he wore the
underwear of his last "conquest".

response 15 of 54:

Jul 5 01:57 UTC 1999

Outside of rare sexists and "does it fit?" issues, i don't think there's 
any real resistance to women wearing traditionally male clothing.  I've 
known a fair number who were happy that their husband/brother/son/etc.
wore clothes that fit them, so they could borrow 'em to wear.  The guys
involved often didn't like it, but that it was a *woman* who was borrowing
& wearing wasn't their issue....  

response 17 of 54:

Jul 5 22:54 UTC 1999

There are a few articles of clothing that still look fetish-y on women, such
as tuxedos and otherformal wear.

I was dressed in full drag (including make-up) last Halloween. I felt like
me. No different.

response 19 of 54:

Jul 7 00:42 UTC 1999

how about a PVC tuxedo?
/

response 21 of 54:

Jul 7 15:31 UTC 1999

        
        The same family of polymer, yeah.

response 23 of 54:

Jul 8 14:23 UTC 1999

shower curtains

response 25 of 54:

Jul 14 04:50 UTC 1999

concerning resp:9  I think I'm with John in the fact that the Industrial 
Revolution really polarized the sexes of peoples of all classes.  I 
think that before that time, the nobility could still afford to stratify 
along gender lines, but the middle and lower classes usually did not.

I think we have also concluded that certain behaviors does not 
necessarily slap a definite label on a person.  I seem to remember it 
mentioned several times that straight men have indulged in tranvestism.  
As far as gender roles, I think strangely the opposite is beginning to 
happen-- the rich are beginning to mingle them while the poor are 
stratifying them.  Redneck/"white trash," laborer Hispanics, and ghetto 
blacks seem to come to mind.

I think we mentioned that women still have a double standard when it 
comes to clothing-- the unaltered tuxedo is definitely an exception.  
However, it is appropriate for women to wear some articles of men's 
formal clothing in certain situations.  Ties and casual or dress shirts 
have been appropriate for some restaurant servers and flight attendants 
who are women.

response 27 of 54:

Jul 14 15:28 UTC 1999

<quietly applauds the Utah Phillips reference>

I've heard the thing about the Industrial Revolution creating our current
gender roles, and I'm not sure I find it too convincing.  At least some of
our gender roles (housework vs. "real work", nurturer vs. provider, and so
on) seem to be pretty much universal.  If anything, one of the long-term
effects of the Industrial revolution is that, for maybe the first time in
history, anatomy does not necessarily determine what someone can or can't do.

response 29 of 54:

Jul 14 17:16 UTC 1999

        There's probably even a biological basis for why the human female is
shorter and has a more flexible spine and the human male has higher muscle
mass, lower fat, and more load-bearing capacity - the basic hunter / gatherer
split.

        But there's a lot more than just how one earns a living to gender
roles.

response 31 of 54:

Jul 15 01:00 UTC 1999

        That's cool, I'm holpelessly generalizing a complicated subject
anyways. :) 

        The current family, and the roles of the individuals in the family (and
therefore gender roles as preparing for the adult role in the family) draws
heavily on the nuclear family of Industrial Revolution Europe;  wherein the
male works, the female often works, but in noticeably distinct fields.  

response 33 of 54:

Jul 15 13:10 UTC 1999

        There is, though.  In many ways, Iranian culture reverses Western
stereotyped roles;  men are expected to be physically affectionate with one
another, openly emotional, and to write poetry and such, qualities ascribed
more to the stereotypical role of women in the West - women are expected to
be unemotional and pragmatic, qualities ascribed more to men in the West. 
It's nicely documented in Edward Halls _The Silent Language_.

        What was it that that first Jewel album said on the cover?  "What we
call human nature is actually human habit."  It's a good quote for the subject
of gender roles.

response 35 of 54:

Jul 15 16:20 UTC 1999

        Then your confusion is understandable, since we've all been discussing
gender roles in general and as they apply to transgenderism.