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Grex > Coop11 > #47: Banning a site from Grex; a discussion of when to do this | |
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| 25 new of 264 responses total. |
steve
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response 105 of 264:
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Dec 6 09:23 UTC 1998 |
Comments and corrections? Staff, feel free to fix typos and
such directly in the two files.
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aruba
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response 106 of 264:
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Dec 6 16:21 UTC 1998 |
I think there should be a direct appeal in there for users to let their
system administrators at IIT know that they use Grex and don't want to see
themselves cut off in the future. The mail doesn't mention the main
difference between this site and others from which people have caused
problems: namely, that the system administrators at IIT have been
unresponsive. So if I were a responsible user and I got this mail, I
wouldn't think there was much of anything I could do about the problem. If
I were a vandal, I wouldn't care. I think we need to try to get the
responsible people on our side.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but ultimately what we need is to have a contact
person there to whom staff can send mail when there is a problem
(attaching logs and other info to help them figure out who the perpetrator
is); a person who will then take action to discipline the person who is
the source of the problem. I think we should use the responsible users
to convince the system administrators that we are worth the trouble of
talking to.
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dpc
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response 107 of 264:
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Dec 6 16:21 UTC 1998 |
Very fine work, steve! There are a few typos, but leaving them in
may enhance the image of Grex as a bunch of volunteers.
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steve
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response 108 of 264:
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Dec 6 16:53 UTC 1998 |
No, given that these people all speak English as a second
language we should use the King's English, I think. I've found
and corrected all the typos in p1 and p2. Someone who likes
going over this might want to look at those two files.
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steve
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response 109 of 264:
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Dec 6 19:18 UTC 1998 |
I have added the wording that Marc wanted; it is near the end
of the letter. You can look at the entire file in ~steve/p2. The
new paragraph reads:
As yet we have not received anything from the administrators of
IIT. We would appreciate it if several people would contact them,
and tell them that the staff of Cyberspace Communications would
like to talk with them, at staff@cyberspace.org. Being able to
communicate with the administrators of IIT will directly influence
our abilities to not ban IIT from Grex, should problems arise
again. Thus it behooves student body to make sure that this
happens.
I'd like to have this mailed out by 9pm tonight if at all
possible.
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scg
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response 110 of 264:
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Dec 6 19:27 UTC 1998 |
Um, I wouldn't word this as if it was a punative thing against IIT users.
It sounds like IIT users are an evil bunch who all need to reform or we will
punish them all. IIT certainly isn't the only site with users who have done
bad things to us in the past.
Instead, we should be emphasizing that the ban was there because their system
administrators wouldn't respond to our complaints, and wouldn't help us
correct the problem, and that if we're getting problem users from a site that
won't deal with things like that, it makes running Grex pretty impossible.
That is why we banned them, isn't it?
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steve
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response 111 of 264:
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Dec 6 19:32 UTC 1998 |
If someone wants to come up with a rewording, I'm all ears. I
personally don't think this paragraph is needed. I'll sit back and
let the community work on this part.
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scg
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response 112 of 264:
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Dec 6 20:13 UTC 1998 |
So if we had a few problems with a site, and administrators there who were
working very hard to solve it, would we have blocked the site as readily?
Ok, here's how I'd word it:
Dear IIT users (or however you want to start it),
From (date) to (date), we blocked access from your site. This was
done because we were not able to get a response from system administrators
at your site after having a large number of problems with users from there.
Over the last several months, we have had repeated problems with users from
your site attacking Grex in ways that have bogged the system down and forced
tour staff to spend lots of time cleaning up after them, as well as users from
your site harrassing many of our female users. Both of these are obviously
not acceptable uses of Grex.
IIT Cerainly isn't the only site we have had problems from. However, in
general, if something like this happens, we complain to the administrators
of the site and the problem gets taken care of. At this point, despite having
sent in repeated complaints, we have received no response from the
administration of IIT, nor have we seen any evidence that they are working
to resolve the situation. Given the number of problems we have had from users
of your site, and the complete lack of response from the administration there,
the only way we were able to solve this problem was to ban your site from
Grex. This is not something we like doing, but we really don't have any
alternative.
We have no temporarally lifted the site ban, to let you know what's going on
here. If the problems continue, and if the administration there continues
to ignore our requests for help with the problem, the ban will be reinstated
until we are convinced that the problems have been solved.
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mta
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response 113 of 264:
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Dec 6 21:10 UTC 1998 |
OK, here's my take combining the Steves' approaches...
MOTD:
To ALL users from IIT Kharagpur (IP address 164.100.25.83):
From November 30th to December 6th, Grex has blocked all access from
your site, after several serious incidents occured which hurt the
Grex's ability to serve its users. To inform all IIT users of why
the ban was enacted, access to Grex has been restored while we
continue our attempts to contact the administrators at your site.
Your mailbox contains a further explaination. Please read this mail
immediately.
GREX WILL REINSTATE THE BLOCK--POSSIBLY PERMENENTLY--IF MALICIOUS
BEHAVIOR CONTINUES.
Mail to be sent:
Grex's block of access from IIT-Kharagpur
Dear IIT users,
Over the last several months Grex has experienced severe problems
with a few users from 164.100.25.83 (Kharagpur). We were not able
to get a response from system administrators at your site after
many attempts to explain the situation and ask for help. These problems
have been so serious and so frequent that we have regretfully taken the
unprecidented action of blocking an entire system from accessing Grex.
Specifically, several "fork bombs" have been used to monopolize all
available CPU so that the system is made useless. Other problems
include downloads of very large files and the harassment of female users.
Please understand that Grex is a very small system not affiliated
with any university or any government. It is maintained by
an all-volunteer staff and by donations from it's paying members and
by fundraisers. No one is paid for the work they do for Grex and
Grex struggles under the burden of an incredibly small budget.
Certainly IIT isn't the only site we have ever had problem users from.
However, in general, if something like this happens, we complain to the
administrators of the site and the problem gets taken care of. At this
point, despite having sent in repeated complaints, we have received no
response from the administration of IIT, nor have we seen any evidence
that they are working to resolve the situation. Given the large number of
problems we have had originating from your site, and the complete lack
of response from the administration there the only way we were able to
solve this problem was to ban your site from Grex. This is not something
we like doing, but we really don't have any alternative.
Since 1991 we have provided computer conferencing, email and
general computer access to the Ann Arbor Michigan area. In
Janurary 1994 Grex became available to the world, and so far
people from more than 122 countries have used Grex.
Grex's openness requires us to trust that our users will not do things
to hurt our system. That has been true most of the time for most users,
though occasionally "vandals" do try to break Grex's security.
Unforunately, there are a few users from IIT who have been running
programs intended to hurt Grex. This has happened at least four times
in the recent past. When such a program is run on Grex it deprives
many people thousands of people of the use of Grex. Even after
such a program has been removed, its effects continue, as Grex
struggles to catch up on all the mail that it missed while the
program was running.
There have also been several incidents of a few people from your
site harassing female users of Grex.
Finally, many MANY people have been downloading large files,
often after repeated requests to not do so.
Grex cannot tolerate this kinds of system abuse. Our system is too
small, and the staff has too much to do without the added burden of
constantly telling users what things are not acceptable use of Grex.
It should be obvious that harassing other users is not acceptable
behavior, nor is running software designed to harm a system.
We have temporarily lifted the block from your system to explain
the problems to the vast majority of responsible Grexers from IIT.
We recognize that we have caused a great inconvience to a many people
in blocking IIT. It was with regret that we took this action.
Unfortunately we had to weigh the effect of denying access to IIT users
against the inconvenience to all our users caused by a few users.
We sincerely hope that the problems we have experienced will stop,
so that Grex can continue to keep its open-door policy to the world
in effect. However, if severe problems continue to occur and we don't
get cooperation from the authorities at IIT, we will have to reconsider
whether granting access to Grex from IIT is in the best interest of our
other 26,000 user from around the world.
We specifically ask for the following from all Grex user, including
those from IIT:
+ Do not bring over, or compose, software designed to harm Grex or
any other system.
+ Do respect the limits of Grex's Internet bandwidth, by not
using Grex for *ANY* file downloads except to retrieve your
mail.
This means:
- Do not receive files larger than 100K;
- Do not use Lynx to obtain graphical/audio/compressed files, and
then FTPing them elsewhere;
- Do not send mail larger than 100K.
+ Do not harass other users, which includes talking to someone if they
have asked you not to. No one on Grex should be bothered
by others; everyone was the right to use Grex and to expect that
can do so without being bothered by other Grexers.
Please help us. This is something we have never had to do before
and it has been neither easy or pleasent. We are hoping that by
explaining this to you, we can spread the word there about the behaviors
that have caused us to take these actions. If access to Grex is important
to you, please discuss these problems with your friends and with your
system administrator. Unfortunately if the problems continue, and if
the administration there continues to ignore our requests for help
the ban will be reinstated until we are convinced that the problem
users have been dealt with/
If you have any questions or comments please send mail to
staff@cyberspace.org. There is also discussion of this
in the "coop" conference, item 47. The coop conference is the
place where policy issues are talked of, and ALL are welcome to
participate.
The Grex staff
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scg
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response 114 of 264:
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Dec 6 21:17 UTC 1998 |
Thanks Misti. That looks good.
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mdw
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response 115 of 264:
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Dec 6 21:22 UTC 1998 |
Why sign it "The Grex staff"? Why not sign it "the Grex membership"?
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scott
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response 116 of 264:
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Dec 6 21:36 UTC 1998 |
I like Misti's version.
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scg
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response 117 of 264:
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Dec 6 21:47 UTC 1998 |
re 115:
It's a lot easier for a staff person to be reasonably sure that they're
speaking for the staff, than that they're speaking for the membership. Even
determining that one is speaking for the board and staff is reasonably easy,
through discussion here and soem e-mail, amking sure you hear form the right
people. Determining that you're speaking for the membership usually involves
a member vote to be sure of it.
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rcurl
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response 118 of 264:
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Dec 6 22:07 UTC 1998 |
This type of problem has been (at least implicitly) delegated to staff
to handle technically. I like it that STeve sees the need to also handle
it politically, and has generated ways to do that, and has acceded to
suggestions that have been made. I am therefore prepared to have staff
to continue to handle the problem (and hence to 'sign' the letter, on
the behalf of "Grex").
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mdw
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response 119 of 264:
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Dec 6 22:36 UTC 1998 |
Yes, but as the wording of this has now been discussed here, doesn't it
make more sense to say "the grex membership" than "the grex staff"? It
also should really say more to the people who were abusing grex. This
isn't a response of the cruel and evil grex staff, who don't after all
own grex, it's the response of the grex membership. the 100 odd folks
who basically own the system and have the final say on things.
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remmers
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response 120 of 264:
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Dec 6 23:22 UTC 1998 |
Staff made the decision to ban the site, and on the basis of user
(not member, coop discussions aren't restricted to members) input
is lifting it pending certain outcomes. Quite honestly I don't
know what the 100-odd members would say about it if polled. "Staff"
is appropriate.
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robh
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response 121 of 264:
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Dec 7 00:09 UTC 1998 |
I wouldn't be comfortable with signing it "the Grex membership"
unless we (ack) put it to a vote. "Staff" is fine with me.
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steve
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response 122 of 264:
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Dec 7 03:21 UTC 1998 |
OK, I have the two files ready as p1.m and p2.m for the motd
notice and mail. There were a couple of tense problems which I
fixed. So unless I hear any last minute pleas, like in tel, I'm
firing them off. It just occured to me that I need to weed out
all the accounts that have been deleted, and then I'll be ready
to send them out.
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steve
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response 123 of 264:
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Dec 7 08:02 UTC 1998 |
The block was lifted at 3.00am EST.
It took longer than I had thought it would, sending out 1693
pieces of mail.
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krj
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response 124 of 264:
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Dec 7 13:52 UTC 1998 |
The IIT text in the MOTD scrolls off the top of the screen.
Perhaps it should be moved to the bottom. (Buy two lines by
taking out the Auction line.)
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remmers
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response 125 of 264:
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Dec 7 14:54 UTC 1998 |
The motd was 33 lines long, 9 lines more than "standard" screen height.
I just shortened it to 28 by taking out some blank lines. If the IIT
announcement is moved to the bottom, one of the election announcements
will scroll off, simply creating another problem. Perhaps the IIT
announcement could be reformatted and/or slightly condensed to bring
the total number of lines down to 24?
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steve
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response 126 of 264:
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Dec 7 15:16 UTC 1998 |
I just moved the message down to the bottom of the file. Might
help, a little.
In any event, I don't think the message needs to be there after
tomorrow morning. I think its had an impact--coupled with the email
thats in all the mailboxes I think the message can have a short life
span.
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mta
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response 127 of 264:
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Dec 7 17:33 UTC 1998 |
Yikes, I should have proofread it better. It's almost uninteligible...
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levi
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response 128 of 264:
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Dec 7 22:59 UTC 1998 |
Well iam not exactly sure whether system admin guys will respond to steve's
mails. If the users from this particular site are turning to be vandals in
the near future , the best course of action will be to ban the site once for
all . And there is no question of racism being involved here, since they were
given a second chance to be considerate grex users. Being a grex user of
Indian origin in US , i fully support the grex staff decision to re enact the
ban if it is needed and wouldnt attribute racism to be a factor
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krj
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response 129 of 264:
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Dec 7 23:21 UTC 1998 |
I gather the following, from comments in this afternoon's party:
IIT KGP is a *really* prestigious institution, and we've probably embarassed
the hell out of them with the MOTD. We probably should pull it soon.
One party participant said that IIT does not allow its students to
telnet to other places. Given the furtive responses to staff inquiries
Steve reported in #0, I'm betting that the address in question is a
bootleg gateway. That's speculation, but it smells right.
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