response 100 of 271:

Jul 4 19:43 UTC 2002

Re #92:  If you can point to where I've said that in this item, please do.
         In fact, I've repeatedly said that I'd happily kick in if Grex were
         in trouble.  Despite what cnmne claims, I'm a potential donor if
         Grex can make a decent case for actually needing the money.  (I've
         given quite a bit to M-Net.)


Re #95:  The jmsaul account was created in 2000.  I'm not sure when the
         older seldon account was created, but feel free to ask STeve if
         you're curious; he may still know.  It's barely possible that I
         first logged in here before you did.

         And being unwilling to learn from the experiences and mistakes
         of other organizations isn't a positive trait, no matter how
         proud you are of it.  M-Net is a very similar system, and faces
         many of the same issues you do.  (And has handled some of them
         quite badly.  For example, we co-located far later than we should
         have, and faced a financial "crisis" we could have avoided.)  You
         may not agree with what I have to say, but I've helped run a non-
         profit that's in the same business yours is, so I'm not ignorant
         of the issues.

response 102 of 271:

Jul 4 20:01 UTC 2002

I stay a member of Grex to show my support for its purposes and to have
the right to participate in its democratic processes. I would do this
whether Grex is rich or poor (as I do with other organizations, both rich
(e.g., Nature Conservancy) and poor (e.g., Thunder Bay Island Preservation
Society)). The question of monetary support for the organization is
separate from my membership, and that would depend upon the need. There
being no apparent need for contributions beyond my membership at this
time, I don't contribute.

response 104 of 271:

Jul 5 01:05 UTC 2002

That kind of web accessible combined interface you speak of Dan has been
thought of before, but security issues have been the primary concern, as
well as interoperability (both client-side, and back-end).

I must admit that where feasible (and not obviously a huge security
risk) we should move to better standards-based software for the next Grex.

It doesn't make sense for me to stick with Sun hardware (especially
considering the flakiness of the OpenBSD port!), *BUT* I'm not
prepared to say Marcus and STeve are necessarily wrong in their opinions.
It'd be hard to find two more experienced professionals willing to
volunteer their time to an organisation such as Grex, as they do.

response 106 of 271:

Jul 5 04:52 UTC 2002

I think it might be good to separate out technical questions from
questions of support.  It's easy to get into a religious war about
technical arcana.  Doing so does nothing to get more people involved.
If we were *really* going for "standards" compliance with the broadest
possible technical support, we'd go with windows NT.  Obviously there
are other technical issues.  But I think for most people, the minutia of
the technology is irrelevant.  As long as grex works and is up, the
exact hardware platform and OS are irrelevant to the vast majority of
users.

Another issue that's been mentioned here is how to recruit new staff
members.  This is really a hard issue, because it involves some serious
questions of trust and responsibility.  There is also a question of how
do we maintain a continuity of our good traditions, while recruiting new
blood, and also, how do we deal with remote staff members who none of us
might know in person?

But I think the most important challenge we need to confront here is not
how to deal with emergencies, or upgrades, but how to deal with getting
people involved to pay the phone bills, the rent, the electricity, and
perhaps most important of all, involved as members who vote.

I don't think I've seen this proposed yet here, so I'll propose it: how
about if we *lower* the general membership rate?  Would any of the
active non-members here feel more interested in contributing if the
membership rate were lower?  How much lower would it have to be to
interest you?

response 108 of 271:

Jul 5 10:34 UTC 2002

I don't think lowering the dues is the way to go.  $60 is not a lot of 
money (and it's a fair amount less than it was 10 years ago). 

jmsaul just doesn't want to be a member--for whatever reason--and 
rather than try to convince *him*, let's move on and figure out how to 
attract the hundreds of others.

response 110 of 271:

Jul 5 13:34 UTC 2002

OK, I'll admit to being rather judgemental.  But this discussion is really
pissing me off, and I'm not going to ignore it.

Joe, it's your call if you don't want to contribute.  But bear in mind that
if you don't, all your suggestions/assertions are for Grex should spend *my*
money.  

response 112 of 271:

Jul 5 13:49 UTC 2002

(Incidentally, if you've actually been reading this item, I'm not the only
 person who won't donate unless you have a demonstrated need or purpose for
 the cash -- so there's a whole class of donors you won't see money from
 unless you address that issue.  It's okay if you don't care.  I mean, it's
 not like you need the money.  But it isn't just me.)

response 114 of 271:

Jul 5 14:05 UTC 2002

Just out of curiosity, Joe, what would it take for you not to feel like an
outsider on Grex, do you think?

response 116 of 271:

Jul 5 14:54 UTC 2002

Re 111:  No, all $5000 is not my money.  I'm referring to my contributions
to the total.

I actually agree that, at the moment, Grex doesn't really need much income.
That's pretty unusual, and makes me a little nervous about what sorts of
unexpected expenses are lurking around the corner.  I'd guess that housing
and connectivity are the big wildcards here; but I'm not too keen on
colocating either.

As for cutting expenses... that's something that is touted as a panacea for
all sorts of problems, but I'm reminded of a quote from Dilbert's boss: 
"Theoretically, if I cut spending enough we'll be profitable without actually
selling anything".  

response 118 of 271:

Jul 5 18:12 UTC 2002

I donate partly because I'd like to see Grex *keep* a nice cash cushion.  I
disagree with the idea that Grex is somehow undeserving of money just
because it has some in the bank.  Living from paycheck to paycheck is a bad
idea for people and it's a bad idea for Grex, too.

response 120 of 271:

Jul 5 19:52 UTC 2002

Re #119: I think another issue with colocation is simply that
Grex's current hardware is too huge for most colo facilities to accept.
It may be more of an option after Grex migrates to something
physically smaller.

I've heard, too, that a lot of colo companies are currently in danger of
going under, so there may be stability issues as well.  It may be to our
advantage to let the tech sector settle out more before we put our eggs in  
that basket.

response 122 of 271:

Jul 5 20:20 UTC 2002

(Mary gives Mark a gentle hug right about now.)

response 124 of 271:

Jul 5 22:15 UTC 2002

I'm not speaking "for" Grex in this item, I'm speaking for myself.  

As for how your new ideas are received (especially with jp2), has it occured
to you that perhaps your demeanor puts people off on your arguments?  It's
a cultural difference; on M-Net abrasiveness is encouraged, on Grex
"politeness counts".