aruba
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Grex's ID policy - email with account usgov
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Apr 13 19:04 UTC 2001 |
About a month ago, Grex received a check from a company called Property
Exchange and Sales, Inc., for membership for account usgov. The following
exchange of emails ensued, amid a good deal of discussion among the board
and staff of how to respond. (Both of my responses were vetted by the board
and staff.) I didn't think it was appropriate to bring this up directly in
coop before, since the details of transactions with Grex are private. I am
posting this now at the request of the user.
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aruba
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response 2 of 133:
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Apr 13 19:07 UTC 2001 |
Hi Property Exchange & Sales Inc. - I got your check - thanks! Grex
appreciates your support. There are a couple of things that need to be done
before I can activate your membership.
First of all, we require some form of ID from all of our members. For an
explanation of why, see http://www.cyberspace.org/memfaq.html#doineedid .
For institutional members, we need a photocopy, scan, or fax of an id (such
as a driver's license or passport) of an individual whom we can contact in
case of trouble with the account.
You can either:
- photocopy the ID and send it to
Cyberspace Communications
P.O. Box 4432
Ann Arbor, MI 48106-4432,
- fax a copy to 734-930-6564, or
- scan it in and email it to mconger@umich.edu . If you get a message back
from Grex saying it bounced, don't worry, it still arrived at my other
account. Just send me mail at aruba@cyberspace.org to let me know I should
go get it.
Second, you wrote in your letter:
"We understand that we will obtain full use of Grex including voting, Wizard
in Training, use of Internet Link, etc."
That's not quite right, because while institutions can enjoy almost all of
the benefits of individuals when they become members, the exception is that
they may not vote in Grex elections. This restriction was put in to
dispel the possibility that someone could get more than one vote by using
corporate memberships.
The legally-minded types on our staff want me to make sure you acknowledge
that difference between what you wrote and how it will be, just so we're all
on the same page.
Third, and finally, you should be aware that while incidental commercial use
of Grex is fine, Grex is not a good platform for serious business ventures.
The reasons for this include:
1. Grex is run entirely by volunteers. They do a fine job of maintaining
the system, but they can't be counted on to jump when you say jump (or to
move at "the speed of business.")
2. Grex's budget is tiny compared to all but the smallest of commercial
ventures. A business that's doing any volume at all would do well to invest
in a commercial ISP account.
3. Grex memberships are not contracts for services, they are donations.
Furthermore, Grex is membership owned and governed democratically. So far
in Grex's 9.5 year history the membership has been very conservative about
changing Grex policy on things like membership benefits, and it's likely
that will continue to be so. But you should be aware of the possibility
that it might not always be so.
That's it - I apologize for the bureaucracy. I look forward to hearing from
you soon.
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aruba
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response 3 of 133:
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Apr 13 19:08 UTC 2001 |
From usgov@grex.cyberspace.org Fri Apr 13 14:49:02 2001
Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2001 16:54:09 -0400 (EDT)
From: ~~ <usgov@grex.cyberspace.org>
To: aruba@grex.cyberspace.org
Subject: Re: Money Received
We are a corporation registered within the State of Missouri. Our bank is
Commerce Bank in St. Louis. It is illegal to provide a copy of a driver's
license or a passport. However, you are, if you have any question, welcome
to check with the Missouri Secretary of State to confrm that we are a
corporation in good standing.
I do not think you would be asking for an officer of IBM for a driver's
license or passport nor, with theft of I>D> these days, would anyone
provide it to you.
We hope that this will be satisfacotry. Certainly the fact that our check
cleared our account or will clear it if you haven't cashed it already
should be more than sufficient. If not, call our bank and they will verify
we have had the account for over 20 years and are a customer in good
standing. Missouri's Secretary of State will also verify we have been in
good standing for at least 20 years, too.
Thanks.
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In case of any problem, you can contact "RICK at Property Exchange.
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P.S> We applaud you and your organization for putting grex together. It
seems like a great way to learn at the same time as being quite practical.
P.S. Do you have a dial-up-line? What is it? We don't suppose you have
an #800 number for it, do you.
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aruba
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response 4 of 133:
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Apr 13 19:09 UTC 2001 |
I'm afraid our ID policy is quite firm. See
http://www.cyberspace.org/memfaq.html#doineedid and
http://www.cyberspace.org/memfaq.html#instid
for more information on the policy. In a nutshell, We are very comfortable
allowing anonymous users access to Grex, but we are not comfortable
unleashing them on the rest of the Internet. It would be irresponsible to
allow people we can't identify to telnet through Grex to other systems, so
we require ID from everyone we allow to do that. In the case of
institutional members, we need the id of a contact person whom we can
contact in case of trouble.
Many people do send us copies of driver's licenses and passports, and I
promise you that if IBM ever requests a Grex membership, we'll ask them for
one too. :)
I haven't deposited your check. I'm waiting until we resolve the ID issue.
I should say that we are great supporters of anonymous access. Anyone is
welcome to use Grex anonymously, or to donate money anonymously. But we
require ID from all our members.
Grex is a democratic institution, and all its policies are ultimately
decided by the membership. If you think our ID policy should be changed,
enter an item in the coop conference suggesting the change. If enough people
agree with you, you'll get what you want. (And if they don't, you'll find
out why.)
> P.S> We applaud you and your organization for putting grex together. It
> seems like a great way to learn at the same time as being quite practical.
Thanks!
> P.S. Do you have a dial-up-line? What is it? We don't suppose you have
> an #800 number for it, do you.
We do have a dialin number, it's 734-761-3000. Sorry no 800 service.
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aruba
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response 5 of 133:
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Apr 13 19:10 UTC 2001 |
From usgov@cyberspace.org Fri Apr 13 14:46:18 2001
Date: Fri, 13 Apr 2001 02:41:06 -0400 (EDT)
From: ~~ <usgov@cyberspace.org>
To: aruba@grex.cyberspace.org
Subject: Re: Money Received
Mark --
We are a corporation doing business within this State. The privacy of the
corporate officers is important to us, just like it is to IBM, Turner
Broadcasting, NBC, etc. It would be outrageous that anyone required a
legal entity known as a corporation recognized by a state to furnish an
individual's driver's license or passport with personal information.
Under Federal law it is a violation of U.S law to make a copy of a
passport. It is a federal crime. Equally, it is a misdemeanor under
Missouri law for anyone to make a copy of a driver's license for ANY
REASON.
We have offered to permit you to verify our corporate (legal status) in
Missouri by simply calling the Secretary of State. We have further
authorized you to contact our bank to verify we have had our account in
good standing for over 20 years. THAT IS IRRESPONSIBLE! You have refused
to bother to do either! You have been provided with the name of a contact
person at our corporation. In this day and age, if a full member of GREX
violated the law, there is no question that law enforcement could trace
the source. Problems are not created by honest internet users like us.
We will not commit a crime because you are so behind the time. No doubt
you are aware that the U.S. Privacy Act of 1974 prohibits the use of SS#'s
for I>D> purposes. Nevertheless, some people waive their right. That is
to their detriment and substantial risk. Again, since we are a legal
corporation, that should not even be an issue.
If at such time as you (if it really is Grex's policy and not your own
personal misinterpretation or lack of knowledge of corporations), don't
require officers of legal corporate entities to violate the law, then you
may cash our check and we shall be happy to support Grex. We suggest you
read up on the law or get a lawyer. The IRS assigns tax identification
numbers to corporations because it recognizes them as legal entities, It
does not require personal information from any officer. Unlike you, Mark,
it does not consider a corporation as an "anonymous" taxpayer, albeit
user! There is no reason that your organization, if it is not just you
putting forth your own personal "seat of the pants" interpretation
relating to corporations, is 20 years behind the time!
Driver's licenses and passports have personal information which could be
used, if your records were compromised, for identity theft, etc. We will
not take that chance and the privacy of the corporate officers is
important to us, even if such were applicable for a legal entity, which
it is not.
It is about time that you changed your ID policies for legal entities
known as corporations (if, again, that is not your own personal policy
rather than that of GREX), and take it up with the membership. Your policy
with regard to corporations, if you are simply not flying by the seat of
your pants and making it up as you go along, is potentially losing our
support and any other corporation that might be interested!
For your information, a corporation is NOT an "anonymous user." It is
amazing in this day and time that you would not know that a corporation is
a legal entity and is not "anonymous!"
Please enter this E-mail in your co-op conference for us along with your
E-mail to us which is also part of this communication. If your membership
feels you are wrong (and we would hope that the Grex membership is not
decades behind), and that you are not authorized to make such policy,
instantur, for legal entities, to wit: corporations, then please let us
know and at that time we will happily support Grex.
PESI /Rick
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