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katt
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---->the JAZZ item<------
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May 12 00:19 UTC 1997 |
I noticed there's not a jazz itejm on here. . .if you're into having one, here
it is! Jazz of every variety, from ragtime to Miles to Thomas Chapin to
you-name-it!
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| 115 responses total. |
raven
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response 1 of 115:
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May 12 03:41 UTC 1997 |
Wow this is a broad yummy topic. :-) My favorites are probably Ornette
Coleman, John Coltrane (yes including late stuff OM etc), John Zorn,
and *early* Herbie Hancock. I think the most interesting things
happening in jazz are things that may not be acknowlodged by the jazz
community as jazz like the acid jazz of Groove Collective, world
music jazz fusion ala Fela Kunti, Ivo Papasov, Shankar's improv violin
work, etc. After all the heart and soul of jazz is improv and the fusion
of different musical styles, for example Dixeland jazz grew out of a
fusion of military brass band music with African rhythm and improvisation.
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katt
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response 2 of 115:
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May 12 21:54 UTC 1997 |
I agree that the jazz community isn't acknowlaging as much cool stuff as it
ought to. . .Ivo Papasov and Shankar are both so amazing and astounding. .
.I think there's been a really SAD purist movement of late, headed up by
Wynton Marsallis and the like. . .iut's too bad, because he's this incredible,
astounding player. . .
I just got that compilation of Late Coltrane, the two disc set with Om and
some other works, it's pretty amazing.
I have millions of favorites, I guess I worship Miles Davis, especially. .
.well, esspecially pretty much everything he did. Since I'm violinist, I'm
listening to them, too. . .Stuff Smith was a genious, Tracy Silverman and MArk
Summer are super-Human, and of course I already mentioned Shakti. . .I'm way
into the Bill Evans solo recordingsa, and bill frisell, and just all kinds
of thikngs. ..
I don't know fela cunti at all, what kind of stuff is it?
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raven
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response 3 of 115:
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May 13 00:46 UTC 1997 |
Fela Kunti is sort of jazzy afro-pop, sort of like King Sunny Ade with
with Sax solos, and brass, and very political lyrics.
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krj
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response 4 of 115:
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May 13 07:11 UTC 1997 |
I'm a moldy fig. My interest in jazz started with Duke Ellington,
particularly the work from the late 30's and the 1940's.
More contemporary performers who I get interested in tend to be
Ellington revivalists, a bit: Abdullah Ibrahim and Toshiko Akioshi.
I've made a few forays into the 1950s and the earliest 1960s with
Miles Davis and John Coltrane, and Charles Mingus, but in general after
1960 I get lost.
I wish I had the time to learn a lot about jazz; in general I end up
settling for buying whatever is playing in Schoolkids when it sounds
interesting.
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scott
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response 5 of 115:
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May 13 11:11 UTC 1997 |
I'm not into jazz much. Mostly because it seems to be rather lame lately.
Sun Ra is one I like a lot, though.
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raven
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response 6 of 115:
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May 13 13:43 UTC 1997 |
re # 5 Yaaaaaaahhhhhhh Sun Ra, may he rest in peace (on Saturn).
My favorite recent jazz/acid jazz CD is Groove Collective, check out their
CD "We the People," it's sort of Sly & the Family stone meets afro-cu-bop
hip-hop. They put on a amazing show at the Blind Pig earlier this year,
dancable music with chromatic scales, if they come to an area near you,
they are not to be missed.
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katt
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response 7 of 115:
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May 15 21:34 UTC 1997 |
hey, Carla Bley just came out with a new album!!! IT'S cool, not as crazy as
the stuff she was into in the seventies and early eightoies, but it's cool
as hell. . .it's kinda melencholy, like the stuff on Social Studies. . .
Scott-have you checked out Orange then Light Blue, or Thoma Chapin(especially
with the brass band)?
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lumen
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response 8 of 115:
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May 15 22:36 UTC 1997 |
I may not be up to date on jazz recordings, but I will leave a short note--
I respect and admire jazz musicians. They have to know their music inside
and out, since they use improv so much more than the classical ones, and more
scales, to boot.
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orinoco
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response 9 of 115:
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May 16 21:55 UTC 1997 |
oof. Yes, definitely. I took a year of jazz at Commie High with Mike Grace,
and what turned me off, and eventually made me leave, was the sheer number
of scales and chords that I 'had' to know. Now I'm coming back to jazz from
the other end, having heard more free jazz and already knowing the scales so
I can just focus on *playing* and not on 'now what key am I in again?...'
I definitely respect those who can play more 'tonal' jazz, though.
Re the whole 'purists' thing--the problem is, there's this whole distinction
between 'jazz' and 'other music where the musicians happen to be improvising'.
Most people wouldn't call Indian classical music, or free improv, or
Stockhausen's free-er stuff 'jazz', but the line is becoming more and more
blurred from both ends. On the one hand, jazz is opening up to outside
influences, and on the other hand, things like "Blood on the Fields" are
making the improvisation part of it secondary.
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colette
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response 10 of 115:
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May 21 00:33 UTC 1997 |
Jazz music is absoultely WONDERFUL!! IMHO, it is also the hardest type of
music to play..just because it has to do with just letting go..and being
yourself...tath is why it is so hard for most people to ilisten to and
play..becasue you HAVE to let go..and be real with people.
I love classical..but that is a completely different ballpark..with jazz,
you have the freedom to make the music uniquely yours....
the only problem with jazz nowadays..is that it has become too text
book dependant..and thats beside the point..you can teach a person
the scales..but you can not teach someone how to groove..yo uhave to feel
it..I grew up in Memphis Tn..the jazz scene there is so alive..i half
expect to see Mose Vinson or Furry Lewis on Beale street.
i really like funk jazz band called "Madesque Martin and Wood"
it's jazz bass, piano, and percussion..you guys should check em
out..theres no way you can sit still in your seat when listening to thses
guys../.and that's another thing..if you hear jazz..and you feel like
dancing..get up and DANCE!!!!
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katt
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response 11 of 115:
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May 23 16:58 UTC 1997 |
orinoco-when did you go to Commie High? I graduated in '92
Yeah, there has been a sorry movement to try and standardize jazz of late.
Especialy frolm Wynton Marsalis. Which is sad. I thinm the most exiting,
amazing thing about it is that it's been new and developing. I had two
teachers this year, one who taught from ghe standpoint of a standardized
language and one who taught from the standpoint of free improv and third
stream music. . .and I realized that we need a wynton marsalis as much as a
roscoe mitchell, because they're both beautiful and the both define one
aother. The one branch can grow from the other. . .I just wish people wouldn't
attack each other over it.
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orinoco
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response 12 of 115:
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May 24 01:52 UTC 1997 |
When did I go? I still do. Just a lowly sophomore, actually. :)
Did you ever take any of Mike's classes while you were there, katt?
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katt
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response 13 of 115:
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May 24 17:02 UTC 1997 |
yeah, I was in the intermediate jazz band when I first started playing jazz
ever, with some other string players. And when I got tendonitous my senior
year and couldn't plkay the violi, he set me up with the vibraphone, and he
and me and this cellist all were a four o' clock band. . .and then I went over
to U of M to take Creative Arts. The string players from the intermediate band
and me formed a band of our own called Blue Sun, too, mostly free improv and
a little bit of arranging. . .
HE always turns out amaing players, man. . .I mean, a significant percentage
of the department at U of M is comprised of Commie High folks. ..
I tink it's probably waaaay different there now than it was when I was there.
. .there wasn't really a line to get in when I was there. . .
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orinoco
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response 14 of 115:
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May 24 19:23 UTC 1997 |
I think I heard about that Vibraphone/Bass/Cello band. Did you know someone
named Gates while you were there...I think his first name was Mo?
I deeply disliked his class, actually. His approach to 'improvisation' now
runs something like this--here's some good licks, here's what chords they
sound good over. Now play them. It wansn't really improvising at all, just
absorbing and regurgitating these patterns.
I wish I was in the position to start my own band, or do something of that
sort, so that I could remain involved with jazz but escape Mike's approach
to it. The problem is I really have very little skill at it other than just
spitting out patterns.
Perhaps you, being more into free improv and such, could answer for me a
question that I brought up while I was taking jazz, and which I never have
heard a satisfactory answer to: Clearly 'real' jazz musicians aren't just
spitting out these patterns that they've memorized ahead of time. Even
listening to the advanced bands at CHS play, it is obvious that they are doing
something other than what Mike is teaching the beginning bands to do. But
nobody can explain what it is. Yes, there is no such thing as a 'wrong note',
but some notes clearly sound better than others in certain situations. So
when you are soloing what is it that you are doing? If this is something
nobody can explain, or even understand, how is it that anyone does it?
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lumen
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response 15 of 115:
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May 24 20:23 UTC 1997 |
My improv teacher explained this really well. Jazz music, as opposed to
classical music, isn't bound by what the composer wrote. The musicians are
free to make as many musical interpretations as they like. Usually, classical
music is expected to be played as written. If a jazz player approaches the
same music, he doesn't have to be perfect-- if he flubs up, he'll make the
'mistake' sound good. Improvisation isn't necessarily all intentional.
About licks: Rock musicians sometimes learn licks by rote, too. Not everyone
is talented enough to play what they hear and then experiment upon it. So
some teachers provide some suggested patterns, to give you a few ideas. If
it helps you to read it on the page, they'll provide written patterns. But
most _good_ teachers will have you listen to recordings of the pros to give
you ideas. I mean, you can experiment on their ideas without fear of being
sued for stealing musical motifs and such, as is usually the case in the rest
of the industry. No real concept of plaigarism in jazz.
I guess the reason why some teachers fall short is because they get stuck in
the classical way of thinking, and I refer to the Classical era when I say
classical. During the baroque period, it was quite fashionable to improvise
upon a song-- this is where trills, mordents, turns, and such came from. The
theme and variations form was immensely popular-- Beethoven got his start by
making variations upon a popular composition of the time. But the spirit of
improvisation seemed to fade away when the Classical era arrived-- composers
disdained the frills and experimentation of the earlier time. They gradually
simplified themes. Scholars, harkening back to the music of the Renaissance,
gave the music of the prior era its name-- baroque means 'imperfect pearl'.
To this day, I sincerely believe most classically trained teachers really
don't fully understand improvisation, or they genuinely understand that you
are creating music as you go along, instead of fiddling with it on paper.
Improv requires tremendous skill. Consider this analogy: it's like giving
an impromptu speech. It's just as difficult, and it's harder to be as
eloquent as you could be if you drafted the material several times on paper.
You only get one shot to do it, and then it's heard.
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katt
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response 16 of 115:
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May 26 02:09 UTC 1997 |
And it's interesting to note further that most of the master "clasical"
musicians were them selevs improvisers; Beethoven was supposedly one of the
greatest improvisers who ever livd.
AS far as patterns go-it's a means to an end. It's a pain to do it, but if
you pratice licks over and over, the tonal language you're dealing with in
those licks somehow works it's way into your fingers. It's kind of a mystical
process. . .hmm. Music is etherial in alot of ways, you know? I mean, you hear
this amazikng thikng in your head that you want to play, but it's not
concretye enough to just make it come out of your instrument, patterns help
you have the facility to come a litle closer. Different people have different
"ins" into playing. . .
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orinoco
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response 17 of 115:
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May 26 19:25 UTC 1997 |
I do know what you're talking about with the music in your head vs. the music
in your fingers. For me, the patterns haven't helped much with that, though.
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remmers
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response 18 of 115:
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May 27 10:56 UTC 1997 |
Re classical music and improvisation: Slavish attention to the
notes was a 19th century attitude, I believe. Before that,
improvisation and embellishment were the norm. In performing a
sonata, e.g. by Mozart, the player was *expected* to improvise,
add ornaments, etc. As Katt points out, Beethoven was a great
improvisor. So was Mozart, by all reports.
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orinoco
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response 19 of 115:
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May 27 19:41 UTC 1997 |
Would I be correct, then, in assuming that the writing out of cadenzas is a
modern 'improvement'?
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remmers
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response 20 of 115:
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May 28 02:05 UTC 1997 |
I think so. In the classical era, a concerto cadenza was often
composed by the performer, and I imagine sometimes improvised
on the spot.
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albaugh
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response 21 of 115:
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May 30 18:33 UTC 1997 |
Let's not get too jazz-elitist about classical music: With the proliferation
of people and music and instruments to a wider world, and making the musical
experience something a lot more people could afford and enjoy, there became
a lot larger populace of non-expert music-makers. Not all (many?) of them
could be expected to be skilled in improvisation, let alone in knowing the
tunes. Thus a need for more & more *printed* music. Eventually the printers
began including a written form of cadenzas as conceived by composers or master
performers, so the inexperienced students would have *something* to go on when
learning the concertos.
All the same, I think it would be a good idea for all instumental students
to get improvisation instruction in school. It couldn't help but make you
a better player. I know I feel "disadvantaged" that I never got any
improvisation instruction, and our school system didn't have a jazz band
[program]. I don't think the whole responsibility for improvisation
instruction should be dumped on the jazz band leaders.
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remmers
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response 22 of 115:
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Jun 2 15:07 UTC 1997 |
Interesting. At what point did the printed scores change from
guidelines to sacred gospel, I wonder, and why did it change?
I imagine that there were additional causes besides simply the
wider availability of printed scores.
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albaugh
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response 23 of 115:
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Jun 4 15:32 UTC 1997 |
Again, I think that it was the changing body of musicians: ameteurs need(ed)
more to go on in the music than just "ad lib". I know that most jazz
arrangements we play in our adult "concert" band have written out licks for
the soloists. That doesn't necessarily mean that an accomplished improviser
couldn't substitute his own interpretation over what's written, but the vast
majority of users at that performing level don't have the ability or
inclination to do so.
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katt
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response 24 of 115:
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Jun 9 14:58 UTC 1997 |
It was also that compositions started to have larger and more complex forms
and imlications in the nineteenth century. . .preformers went from improvising
their cadenzas to playing more and more through composed ones. . .and among
those, certain became favorites. Most of the cadenzas for violin concertos
at least were written by violinists. . .it and occasionaly performers will
still write their own. It's just less common. As the forms and ensembles and
the like got huger and more complex, the plaing of it had to become more and
more dependant on it's tabulature sheets. In the present, exact reproduction
of the score has, sadly, all but replaced creativity except on the subtlest
level, and less and less newer scores are performed. I do not, however, think
this is a problem intrinsic to written music as opposed to improvised music,
but a problem with people's viewpoint and attitudes towards the best way to
perform what's written on a page.
I think one of the coolest things I've heard done with written music of late
is the Pakrovsky Ensemble's performance of Stravinsky's "Les Noces". It is
*gorgeuos*, even though it is not something I think Stravinsky would have
envisioned in a million years-and through the fusion of two very old and set
forms is the creation of something very new.
I actualy had a violin teacher the last few years who would have his students
write their own cadezas to concertos as a matter of course. I hope that this
illustrates a trend. . .I hope to be proficient enough one day to improvise
such cadenzas. . .
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