I need to buy something from Grex

Apr 17 10:52 UTC 1998

I'd like to see Grex have an official way of dealing with sales of old/donated
equipment.

Where this comes from is my attempts to buy a monitor from the pile in the
Pumpkin.  Grex (the rehab committee especially) has some amount of what could
be considered surplus equipment, such as old PCs, monitors, obselete Sun
hardware, etc.  I need a monitor for a bit of legacy gear at work, so I
grabbed one from the Pumpkin (it'll come right back to the Pumpkin if needed),
and sent mail offering $10 to rehab for it.  However, there was some objection
to me (as a staffer and board member) being able to set prices on my own,
rather than from Grex's appropriate governing system.  Further email yielded
a deafening silence (except one piece from ajax, saying that the market for
these monitors is about $1).

So who *is* willing to set a price on this?  I'm also interested in renting
an Iolan terminal server (our spare) for a day or two for research purchases.

response 2 of 29:

Apr 17 16:11 UTC 1998

Well, one of the members of rehab was worried that Grex needed to formalize
these types of transactions so that things like 501c3 wouldn't be compromised
by staffers just taking things and making up their own rules.

I've loaned Grex things from work on occasion, too.

response 4 of 29:

Apr 17 16:38 UTC 1998

I'm the grouch. The issue here is a *very* small version of really serious
problems that occur when public servants divert public resources to
private use. For example, the current flap over police guns in Coleman
Young's private collection. Since it is actually more the principle at
issue here rather than the amount of money, even small borrowings can be
looked upon as unethical. After all, the fundamental ethic of non-profit
(and especially charitable tax-exempt) orgnizations is that

 ARTICLE 6
         The following restrictions will apply to the operations of
   the Corporation:

         1. No part of the net earnings of the Corporation shall
   inure to the benefit of, or be distributed to its members,
   trustees, officers or other private persons, except that the
   Corporation shall be authorized and empowered to pay
   reasonable compensation for services rendered and to make
   payments and distributions in furtherance of the purposes set
   forth in Article II.

Of course, any non-profit is able to buy and sell goods. But again it
should not show favoritism to anyone, especially not those involved in its
governance. So, if Grex wants to have its collection of old equipment for
sale, they should be for sale to anyone. If Grex has anything for sale, it
should be priced and advertised as available. The same goes for loaning
equipment - if anything can be borrowed for private use, it should be
borrowable by anyone. 

I realize that a lot of people do not attach much importance to taking or
borrowing some things from their place of employment - in fact, there are
jokes about this: pencils, paper clips, paper, staplers (?), computers
(?!)....and certainly companies look with disfavor upon this, even if they
cannot control it too well. The control I do know about is that private
companies do allow some borrowing of some things for private use, so long
as this is no problem for operations, and Grex could allow this a a "perq"
for members, if it wanted. But it should be known what the "rules" are. 

response 6 of 29:

Apr 17 19:53 UTC 1998

I also don't think we should get all constipated over this.  If someone
wants to *buy* a piece of our equipment, I suggest that s/he post an
item in Agora saying "I would like to buy the chrono-synclastic
infundibulator for $XXX.  Would anyone like to offer more for it?"
Then wait a week or so, and if no higher bids are received, the
purchaser pays aruba and that's that.

If someone wants to *borrow* a piece of equipment for a short time,
and the equipment would still be Grex property, I suggest that teh
person send mail to our fearless President asking permission.
After all, making such high-level executive decisions is what the
President is for!   8-)

response 8 of 29:

Apr 17 20:14 UTC 1998

The fact that members have donated and loaned Grex a lot of stuff over
the years does not imply that the reverse is ethical. A member has
complete personal responsibility to donate or loan things. But where
does that responsibility lie in Grex? 

David's suggestions are reasonable. I would like in addition that
there is an inventory of "loose items" that people can make a bid for,
which can be consulted. There should also be a decision if that inventory
is open to everyone or just to members (as a 'perq'). Grex should have
an inventory of its property anyway (eventually for insurance or tax
purposes, perhaps). 

The borrowing of stuff is a little different. It is one thing to loan
something to an indivdual for a non-profit purpose (like Grex's own),
or for a profit making purpose. Those doing the latter should be willing
to pay for the use, just as Grex would have to pay to borrow equipment
from another business (unless they want to donate the loan). But, can
Grex *donate* the loan of equipment to a for-profit enterprise? Doesn't
sound right. 

It also seems reasonable to me that, if there is equipment that can be
borrowed by individuals - or only by members (a 'perq') - it should be
in an inventory that is available to all. From whence would come such
a privilege for a subgroup of members - as an exchange 'perq' for their
donated time? 

I do know what I am talking about as I donate much time, money and material
in other non-profits, but would not even think of expecting to buy anything
from them that is not openly offered for sale, or borrow anything unless
that privilege is open. 

response 10 of 29:

Apr 18 05:44 UTC 1998

So, you believe that this is a 'perq' that should be restricted to staff?

response 12 of 29:

Apr 18 18:10 UTC 1998

We might get a better price for it if it is auctioned on-line, as has
been suggested. Old computer stuff has value to many more people than
Grex staff - have you ever been to a computer rummage sale? EVERYTHING
has "fair market value". I also oppose "accumulating" it - make it
available (if it is not being held for something useful) for sale, or
for donation to "needy" users. And, I agree with adding value to Grex -
but who can do that is not restricted to staff.

response 14 of 29:

Apr 19 03:13 UTC 1998

That means setting up (perhaps implicitly) a list of those "OK" to borrow
things. Hence, a staff (and board?) 'perq'? Actually, I'm not strongly
opposed to that - but it should be an established principle, rather than
an under-the-table activity. What I would question is borrowing things
for commercial use (or use on behalf of a for-profit company). 

response 16 of 29:

Apr 19 13:49 UTC 1998

This sounds like a tempest in a teacup to me.  I think if we need to make it
"an established principle", then so be it.  But the staff of Grex has donated
much, much more to Grex than the short-term loan of antiquated equipment can
ever repay.

If borrowing something that Grex isn't using anyway can make the other things
they do easier (and maybe free up some of their already overburdened time)
I say they ought to have that perq.

response 18 of 29:

Apr 19 18:13 UTC 1998

That at least would be a fair way to find out there is purchasable junk,
if no one wants to do an inventory.

Re #16: you have again brought up "repaying" volunteers for their time and
personal contributions. When I volunteer I do not expect a repayment -
except "appreciation". But repayment in tangible ways goes against the
very principle of volunteerism, not to mention running into issues of
compensating volunteers with more than "minor" benefits (ala IRS
regulations).

response 20 of 29:

Apr 20 10:50 UTC 1998

Thanks, Keesan.  I'm beginning to think I should just find the monitor
elsewhere.  Probably we should see if anything gets resolved at the Board
meeting Wednesday.

response 22 of 29:

Apr 20 18:31 UTC 1998

At Kiwanis, we sell monochrome composite monitors for $5, TTL for $10,
color composite and CGA are $30.   By the way, there are bulk prices on
these things (if you buy 10 or more they are half or one quarter price).

EGAs $40, VGA monochrome $50, VGA color $60.
They are of course cheaper if you buy a computer with them (a working
2-floppy 8088 with monitor and keyboard is $25, etc.)
Rummage sale prices are a lot lower.  This stuff has been checked out.
I am willing to set people up and provide support on one of these
computers, if they will join grex as paying members for 6 months.  I have
things set up so you only have to turn on the machine and it tells you
whether you have e-mail.  If anybody knows anybody non computer literate
who wants  to join grex, send them to me at Kiwanis.

Scott, what sort of monitor did you need?  I have a fairly complete
collection at home, too, that you can just borrow free.

response 24 of 29:

Apr 21 16:33 UTC 1998

I am not asking to apply "bureacratic rules". I am asking that no individuals
have "special access" - that any such goods be available to all if to
anyone. Post an offer to sell that monitor to the highest bidder - maybe
Scott could get it for less than $10 (or, if we are lucky, for more).

Let's distinguish borrowing and buying - and also between non-profits
(like neighbors) and with for-profits. The local hardware store will
not participate in that neighborly exchange you described.