response 1 of 38:

Jul 13 09:11 UTC 2003

It should be noted I entered an item about this MONTHS ago.

response 3 of 38:

Jul 13 11:55 UTC 2003

If you didn't read my item them, why are you reading these responses now?!

response 5 of 38:

Jul 13 17:49 UTC 2003

So you can lower the defining age of children to your convenience?? So 
if you have a dozen gun-toting children aged 13, next thing you do is 
define children to be those who are under 10???

response 7 of 38:

Jul 14 23:03 UTC 2003

Judaism has defined 13 as the age of adulthood since long before there 
were firearms to tote.  What was your point, #5?

response 9 of 38:

Jul 15 03:03 UTC 2003

We are wondering how Mr. other's point squares with the fact that 
after leaving Egypt the Israelites were instructed to conduct a census, 
including only "every man over 20 years."  (Ex. 30:14) - The generally 
accepted purpose of the census being to determine the size of the 
fighting force.

response 11 of 38:

Jul 15 14:43 UTC 2003

It certainly is one definition of adulthood as accepted throughout the 
history of the Jewish religion.  I cannot comment on #9 except to say 
that perhaps adulthood alone is insufficient basis among the 
Jewish people to engage in warfare.

As for #10, well, sorry to break the news, but if you think that 
conclusion follows from #9 then your logic is seriously flawed, and if 
you have any other basis for your remark, I suggest you present it or 
else admit the fallacy and retract it.

response 13 of 38:

Jul 16 01:09 UTC 2003

As even Leeron will surely admit, the typical teen being held by Israel
is incarcerated for possession of, well, stones.

Last I heard, throwing a stone at a tank carried an administrative penalty
of six months in prison.

response 15 of 38:

Jul 16 17:07 UTC 2003

I suppose the source I would point to is the bible ("old testament") or 
the talmud, from which this practice originates, but as a Jew who was Bar 
Mitzvahed and who was educated in Jewish religious school all the way 
through high school (in parallel with secular schooling, not in place of 
it), my primary source of authority on the subject is lifelong 
experience.

Besides, what absolute arrogance could possibly permeate a legitimate 
history textbook so thouroughly as to presume to dictate that what an 
entire religious faith believes to be the definition of adulthood (a very 
nebulous concept even in modern American law -- at least in application) 
is a "misconception"?  Your source is either being misrepresented, or it 
is plainly of inadequate legitimacy to be relevant.

response 17 of 38:

Jul 16 18:34 UTC 2003

http://www.jbuff.com/c032901.htm

The origin of the Bar Mitzvah may be found in the "Mishnah". The Hebrew 
word "Mishnah" is derived from "shanah", to repeat. The "Mishnah" 
constitutes the first part of the Talmud, which is a collection of 
scriptural interpretations first written in the 3rd century of the Common 
Era. In the 6th Division of that book, called "Tohoroth", in the 
subdivision called "Niddah", or vows, verse 6 deals with the validity of 
vows by children and holds that the vows of a boy age thirteen are valid 
and that the same holds true for girls at age twelve. This interpretation 
then led to the custom of instituting the Bar Mitzvah  ceremony  and 
designating the thirteen year old an adult. Usually these Hebrew/ Aramaic 
words are translated as "Son of the Commandment". This designation first 
came into use in the late Middle Ages. Prior to that time other labels 
were attached to a thirteen year old, such as "Godol", meaning big or 
adult or "Bar Onshin", meaning responsible.

response 19 of 38:

Jul 16 18:53 UTC 2003

Re: 18:

PA Educating Children to Violence and Combat.
http://www.pmw.org.il/new/tv%20part3.html

Links to video clips from Palestinian television are provided:
=====
Song and Dance to Violence:
This MTV style music video calls upon children to attack Israelis with stones:
You will not be saved, Oh Zionist, from the volcano of my countys stones and
is sung to scenes of children throwing stones and participating in frenzied
war dances. [PA TV Mar. 2002- June 2003, repeatedly]

Rocks for Toys: 
Young Palestinian children are taught to replace their toys and dolls with
rocks [May 2, 2001] 

Killing all the Jews: 
A teenage girl calls for the killing of Jews: We wont leave a single Jew here.
[Palestinian Authority TV, Oct. 22, 2000] 
 
The Palestinian Authority sends different messages to the world in English
than to their people in Arabic

In the very same week that the Palestinian journalists union banned
journalists from photographing Palestinian children carrying weapons ...
saying that the pictures harm the Palestinian cause [AP The Jerusalem Post
Aug. 26, 2002] PA TV interviewed a child in his home - and for the purpose
of the interview - placed a Kalatchnikov automatic rifle with the bullet clip
over his shoulder. [Aug 23, 2002]
================

PA Indoctrination of Children to Seek Heroic Death for Allah - Shahada 
http://www.pmw.org.il/new/tv%20part1.html
=====
Children convinced that death is best:
Two 11 year olds girls articulate their personal goal to Die for Allah -
Shahada, explaining that all Palestinian children see Shahada with its
promised Afterlife, as more worthwhile than living. [June 2002] 

A Palestinian journalist to 7-year olds:
"Dont be afraid to die".
A Palestinian journalist asked a second grade child if he feared death. When
the child hesitated, the journalist shook her head to signal that the correct
answer was no, even for 7-year-olds [PATV, Oct. 29, 2000]

Farewell Letter Music Video
A young boy leaves a farewell letter to his parents and goes off to seek Death
for Allah - Shahada- describing the death he aspires as sweet. This PA
indoctrination clip is designed to offset a childs natural fear of death, by
depicting Shahada as heroic and tranquil. [PA TV 2001- 2003, repeatedly] 
 
Muhammad Al Dura in Paradise Clip:
Through a child actor, this music video portrays the delightful Paradise of
Muhammad Al Dura, whose death in a crossfire was broadcast on TV. He is
portrayed flying a kite, frolicking on the beach and even at an amusement
park. The film-clip opens with the invitation to other children from Al Dura:
"I am waving to you not to part, but to say 'follow me' 
[PA TV Dec 25, 2000 and repeatedly since then]

Yasser Arafat :
Arafat explains that dead Palestinian children- Shahids are the greatest
message to the world.
[PATV Jan. 15, 2002] 
============================

As Golda Meir observed, Israel will have peace when the Arabs love their
children more than they hate the Jews.

http://www.pmw.org.il/new/tv%20part4.html -
        A mother expresses joy at her son'’s Shahada - Death for Allah.

response 21 of 38:

Jul 16 20:35 UTC 2003

Re: 18 - some additional information for you:

 
Wed Jul 16, 7:33 AM ET 

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/030716/168/4p2ez.html

A Palestinian boy participating in a summer camp organized by the Islamic
group Hamas, holds a mock rocket launcher as others show signs during a rally
to demand the release of prisoners from Israeli jails in central Gaza City
Wednesday July 16, 2003. The headbands read in Arabic ' No God but God and
Mohammed is the Prophet of Allah'. The boy at right holds a sign showing
pictures of jailed Hamas militants in custody in Israeli jails. (AP
Photo/Efrem Lukatsky)  

response 23 of 38:

Jul 17 06:14 UTC 2003

I did not question the fact that children in Palestine are 
participating in attacks on Israelis. Nor am I saying that PA is not 
encouraging children to do.

My question is, is it appropriate to jail children? And at what age do 
you stop?? I am sure any child can start firing a small pistol from 
eight onwards. Would you go ahead and seek their incarceration too?