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pvn
Reverse Roe-v-Wade Now! Mark Unseen   Jul 4 06:40 UTC 2003

Because it is bad law.  The "right" of women to abort is horribly sad,
and was very close to being passed in most all of the States over time
when the SCOTUS stepped in it and short circuited what should have been
a normal process.  Instead it has become an issue that has festered on
the body politic for decades.  Not to mention the aborted but I believe
there are a number of dead adults who would otherwise be alive today
where it not for that ruling.  Had the SCOTUS not ursurped
constitutional authority it didn't have, today most if not all States
would be exactly where they are now without grounds to be challenged. 
Perhaps a couple conservative states in the north might have held on to
antiquarian views just like they did slavery but its likely neighboring
states would have offered 'quicky abortions' to the general population
just like only Nevada offered 'quickly divorced' to the elite even more
decades ago and by the same right that the SCOTUS eliminated in
Roe-v-Wade.

If the SCOTUS had ruled on women voting the way it did on the abortion
issue we would still be fighting that one as well.
35 responses total.
gelinas
response 1 of 35: Mark Unseen   Jul 4 13:23 UTC 2003

Unfortunately, if Roe vs Wade were overturned now, it would be seen as a
rejection of the right to abort.  I think the result would be the immediate
passage of laws strictly limiting, and at least a few out right banning,
abortion.  It would take several years, possibly decades, to remove those
laws.

After all, that is exactly what is happening right now: legislatures continue
to pass laws strictly limiting abortion.  The _only_ reason they don't ban
it out right is Roe vs. Wade.  It would be a very simple matter for the
legislatures to do exactly the opposite and enact laws that expanded Roe vs.
Wade, but they aren't.
jmsaul
response 2 of 35: Mark Unseen   Jul 4 15:13 UTC 2003

What Joe said.
sabre
response 3 of 35: Mark Unseen   Jul 4 15:39 UTC 2003

Well said pvn. Abortion is murder ...pure and simple.
A women has her choice in the moment she chooses to spread her legs.
That's the only "woman's right to choose" that I support.
We need to enact laws that protect the rights of unborn children.
twenex
response 4 of 35: Mark Unseen   Jul 4 16:18 UTC 2003

What about women who are raped? Most people i know who reject abortion are
men...most legislators (conservative or otherwise) are men...more Southern
legislators are men...go figure.
pvn
response 5 of 35: Mark Unseen   Jul 5 08:24 UTC 2003

re#1: Isn't that exactly the rights of a State if they so choose to do?
Otherwise what use is State governments in the first place, just have
all law passed and prosecuted on a Federal level.  On the contrary, I
suspect if Roe-V-Wade were repealed the reaction of State governments
would reflect the views of their respective citizens which is what was
intended when the Constitution was enacted.  Where in your view does the
pressure to enact anti-abortion law come from?  The citizens?

re#2:  I think not.  I suspect the reaction of State's legislators would
be to individually enact either enabling legislation preserving the
status quo or to enact prohibition which would be quickly overturned.
My point is that Roe-V-Wade has purpetuated a debate that should have
been over long ago.  Nobody today seriously challenges a black person's
or a woman's right to vote.

re#3:  No. Abortion is a reasonably safe medical procedure with horrible
emotional consequences in many cases.  Fetuses don't vote and therefor
are not citizens so have no rights so abortion is not murder.

re#4: A recent study showed that the majority of women opposed abortion.
I suspect this is an artifact of the methodology or it may simply be
that women have an emotional attraction for children in general where as
men generally have a sexual attraction towards women.  What about women
who are raped?  Its a crime in the general catagory of assault and
battery so what?  What, you want rapists to pay child support?
gelinas
response 6 of 35: Mark Unseen   Jul 5 08:42 UTC 2003

You argue that if the Roe vs Wade decision did not exist we would still be
where we are today: abortion largely available.  Perhaps, if the decision had
not been made and the opinions deriving from it did not exist, the laws
prohibiting abortion would have been repealed.  You extend that, in #0, to
say that Roe vs Wade should be overturned to allow the legislatures to do what
they should have done and would have done.  You then argue that the
legislatures will act quickly to return us to our current state of abortion
being largely available.  I think you are short-sighted.  As you note, there
is wide-spread opposition to abortion.  The legislatures will react to that
oppositon WHICH WILL NOT DISAPPEAR if abortion is banned.  I think it will
take AT LEAST two decades to recover from overturning Roe vs Wade.
pvn
response 7 of 35: Mark Unseen   Jul 5 08:58 UTC 2003

Roe-V-Wade was ruled by SCOTUS at a time long ago where most States were
in the process of enacting State legislation allowing for the modern
medical procedure.  It was the '70s which was rather more than two
decades ago.  In my humble opinion it should have been over and done
with way back then.  Instead RvW has allowed the arguement to fester on
to this day.  The Roe of RvW has now come out calling for the repeal
which wouldn't even be on the radar scope had the legal process not been
subverted by that SCOTUS at the time.  The USA is a republic, not a
democracy and the fact that the majority of women might appear to hold
one view is moderated by another study which rank-orders issues shows
that abortion is rather low on the list.
sabre
response 8 of 35: Mark Unseen   Jul 5 13:06 UTC 2003

"No. Abortion is a reasonably safe medical procedure with horrible
 emotional consequences in many cases.  Fetuses don't vote and therefor
 are not citizens so have no rights so abortion is not murder."

According to this faulty reasoning any child who doesn't vote is without
rights. 
My daughter doesn't vote yet. She is a minor but she still has rights.
As for citizenship being a prerequisite for having rights...Ha
We give every third world indigent that floats over here on an inner-tube
rights. Predecent has already been established in courts concerning unborn
babies. If you murder a women carrying a child in her womb you are charged
with two murders. As for the rape scenario I hear that argument all the time.
It's usually coupled with "what if the life of the mother is at stake"
Both of those situations are rare.  Abortion on the otherhand isn't rare.
It has taken more lives than have been lost in all the wars America has ever
fought. It IS murder.
cyberpnk
response 9 of 35: Mark Unseen   Jul 5 14:19 UTC 2003

If you're against abortion, why not make birth control free and easily 
available? Oh, but I forgot; the same people who are against abortion 
are against birth control, as well. What these people are really against 
is SEX.
orinoco
response 10 of 35: Mark Unseen   Jul 5 14:44 UTC 2003

Some of them.  But not all of them.  Don't go underestimating people just
because you disagree with them.
jmsaul
response 11 of 35: Mark Unseen   Jul 5 14:45 UTC 2003

Re #5:  Most women may say they wouldn't personally get an abortion, but
          survey results consistently show that the majority favors abortion
        remaining legal.
drew
response 12 of 35: Mark Unseen   Jul 5 19:08 UTC 2003

Re #9: Life begins at erection.
rcurl
response 13 of 35: Mark Unseen   Jul 5 19:12 UTC 2003

Roe vs Wade was inevitable at about the time it occurred. The issue was
on its way to the Supreme Court one way or another. The decision wasn't
inevitable, however. That it came out the way it did was, of course, a
coincidence of the issue and the evolution of the court coming together to
yield that decision. 

Speculation now on where we would be without Roe Bs Wade or an equivalent
ruling at about that time is just that: speculation. I can see several
courses history could have taken, depending on other events that have not
occurred but could have. I like to think that the tendency of our nation
has been toward increased individual freedom - but we certainly see that
that can have up and downs, with some down occurring right now. 

In any case, I laugh at those that rant that abortion is "murder",
because, course, it is. But so what? So is killing in war, or in self
defense, or in the death penalty, all forms of currently santioned murder. 
If on the other hand you want to reserve the term "murder" for illegal
killing, then abortion is by defintion not murder, as it is sanctioned. 

It is in my opinion an inalienable right that women should have, and were
denied for too long, to control their own bodies over a sufficient period
for them to make a decision about continuing a pregnancy. It is *not* as
simple as women refusing men's sexual overtures, as men have had immense
control over women in the past (and present), physically, financially and
emotionally; control that women have not had over men.

russ
response 14 of 35: Mark Unseen   Jul 5 19:28 UTC 2003

Re #5 para 1:  No, if R v. W were repealed, the state governments
would take action reflecting the most vocal and organized faction of
the population, namely that which is dissatisfied with the status quo.
The majority of the people might not want to change anything, but
there are many examples of extremist pressure groups giving the
electorate something that they didn't want and have to take action
to repeal (see Kansas state education standards, reversed by voter
outrage over the right-wing stealth campaign).
pvn
response 15 of 35: Mark Unseen   Jul 6 08:06 UTC 2003

If Roe-v-Wade were repealed at the federal level and thrown back to the
States they would most likely pass relevent law.  The debate would be
over just as it would have been three decades or so ago if the SCOTUS
hadn't seen fit to legislate instead of act as it was originally
designed.
md
response 16 of 35: Mark Unseen   Jul 6 12:49 UTC 2003

If the abortion issue were thrown back to the states, then in two 
generations, tops, the US would be overrun by trailer trash.  I 
personally think that would be a good thing, but that might be a 
minority opinion here.
cmcgee
response 17 of 35: Mark Unseen   Jul 6 16:26 UTC 2003

And Mensans overrunning the US would be better???
rcurl
response 18 of 35: Mark Unseen   Jul 6 17:40 UTC 2003

Abortions have always been available and would still have been available
without Roe vs Wade. The big difference is whether they are safe for the
woman or not. 

I thought the Supreme Court did act as they were designed to act in Roe vs
Wade. Individual freedoms are ensconced in the Constitution, even if not
equally applied in reality. The right of a woman to control her own body,
a right that men enjoy, is as central to our society as is a woman's right
to vote (even if we had to amend to Constitution to create that right).

jazz
response 19 of 35: Mark Unseen   Jul 6 20:35 UTC 2003

        What I see as happening if Roe v. Wade was overturned:  the number of
fatalities from back-alley and illegal out-of-state abortions would invariably
rise.  Women's social status would fall as fewer women are able to maintain
careers.  Single motherhood would rise.  The lives of the rich would remain
more or less the same.
md
response 20 of 35: Mark Unseen   Jul 6 23:26 UTC 2003

I forget what statistic supported the claim, if any, but for a while 
there back in the '70s black militants were calling Roe v. Wade 
genocide.  I think that ended the same time as the global cooling scare.
jazz
response 21 of 35: Mark Unseen   Jul 7 00:01 UTC 2003

        "Legalized suicide" doesn't have the same rhetorical bite now does it?
gull
response 22 of 35: Mark Unseen   Jul 7 15:32 UTC 2003

Considering that most state legislatures have been pandering to the
right by passing laws limiting abortion, I have no doubts that it'd be
completely outlawed if Roe v. Wade were overturned.  State legislatures
tend to react to their most vocal constituants and favor religious
issues, even if those people are a minority.

Already in many states we have a situation where abortion is legal but
nearly impossible to get, due to a combination of state regulations and
intimidation by violent protesters.
klg
response 23 of 35: Mark Unseen   Jul 7 16:43 UTC 2003

re:  "#22 (gull):  ... I have no doubts that it'd be completely 
outlawed if Roe v. Wade were overturned."

Although, if you were better informed, you might have them.
janc
response 24 of 35: Mark Unseen   Jul 7 16:48 UTC 2003

I doubt it.  Pro-choice activists aren't very active because what they want
is essentially the status quo.  If Roe vs. Wade falls, there would be a big
pro-choice backlash.  How big?  I don't know.
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