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Grex > Agora46 > #232: India's moral and political failings. | |
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cross
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India's moral and political failings.
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Sep 18 23:48 UTC 2003 |
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| 51 responses total. |
cross
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response 1 of 51:
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Sep 18 23:48 UTC 2003 |
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tod
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response 2 of 51:
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Sep 19 00:14 UTC 2003 |
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cross
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response 3 of 51:
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Sep 19 00:16 UTC 2003 |
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bru
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response 4 of 51:
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Sep 19 03:26 UTC 2003 |
India biggest political failing is in not keeping the Sikhs in country. Seems
like every Indian trucker crossing the border is a Sikh from Punjab. And that
is not an exageration.
They tell me they are discriminated against in india and have left for that
reason.
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mynxcat
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response 5 of 51:
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Sep 19 04:11 UTC 2003 |
Wow, that is just so ... wrong. You really have no clue about the political
scene in India do you? I mean, you've based the biggest failure of a country
that is on the other side of the earth, not on what you've read, or what
you've experienced, but on what you see coming through customs from a
country that has a lot of sikh immigrants.
"...like every Indian trucker crossing the border is a Sikh from Punjab." -
Uhm yeah. Sikhs are known to be truck drivers (and farmers). It's just one
of those traditions I guess. It's no surprise most Indian truck drivers will
be sikh.
".. They tell me they are discriminated against in india and have left for
that"
Aside from the refusal to allow them to have their own country, that statement
is highly exaggerated. I'm guessing most of them left when we had the riots
back in 1984 (don't remember the details. I was 9) you have sikh immigrants
for much the same reason you have immigrants of other religions or backgroudns
- better life, more money, whatever else.
And it's not like all the Sikhs have left the country. If you're going to base
a country's political failing on immigration of it's people, don't limit it
to just hte Sikhs. You have a lot of South Indians immigrating too. Include
them into the theory too.
I think of all the failings that the country has, Sikh immigration is pretty
low on the list.
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tod
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response 6 of 51:
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Sep 19 04:30 UTC 2003 |
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pvn
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response 7 of 51:
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Sep 19 05:54 UTC 2003 |
Folk from backwoods wisconsin feel the same way.
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sholmes
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response 8 of 51:
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Sep 19 07:35 UTC 2003 |
It would be like the first europeans who landed in America were discriminated
in their own country ..Christopher Columbus ( or whoever it was ) et al .
Many Indians leave india for better opportunities sake ..not for
discrimination.
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bru
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response 9 of 51:
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Sep 19 14:02 UTC 2003 |
well, why do they all say they are discriminated against? And is this a caste
thing where the india culture only allows them to be truchk drivers?
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twenex
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response 10 of 51:
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Sep 19 14:09 UTC 2003 |
Yes, it was Christopher Columbus who discovered America. (THough some suspect
it may have been discovered beforehand bgy Amerigo Vespucci, for whom the
Ameica were named, and was almost certainly inhabited at some point in the
late first or early second millenium AD by Vikings.) But afaik, the only
discrimination Columbus faced was not getting funding for his trip "around
the world" (most Europeans at the time thought the world was flat) from the
authorities in his native Genoa, and having to go to the King and Queen iof
Spain instead. Columbus, afaik, never actually *settled* in America - the
English and Scottish (and Irish?) settlers who were the first to live their
were Puritans and other religious denominations discriminated against by the
Kings of England. So they were told, "If you go away to America and leave us
alone you can govern yourselves and live."
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mynxcat
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response 11 of 51:
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Sep 19 14:35 UTC 2003 |
It's not a caste thing that they're truck drivers, they just are. More like
family run businesses, or something. I'm not sure why, but I'm pretty sure
it has nothing to with caste
How many Sikhs did you ask by the way? And when did they move to Canada? And
why do you base the political failings of a country that's half way around
the world on what some truck drivers tell you :P
(The sikhs were pretty resourceful when it comes to looking for new
oppurtunities. A lot of them move to Canada and open gass stations. Mostly
because they know the trade. Same with the truck drivers. They're looking for
a better life. )
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gull
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response 12 of 51:
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Sep 19 14:52 UTC 2003 |
Re #6: LOL.
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gelinas
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response 13 of 51:
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Sep 19 15:30 UTC 2003 |
(I thought Vespucci visited the New World after Columbus but was the first
to recognise it as a new continent. Also, Spanish and Portuguese were
settling in Florida and points south and west long before the Puritans left
England.)
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sholmes
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response 14 of 51:
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Sep 19 15:33 UTC 2003 |
Not exactly a caste thing. But some professions arte like.. whatever the
father does the son does too. You would be surprised toknow how many nepalis
are in the army or even more so as security guards. NOthey were not
discriminated into being security guards.
That does not mean there is no discrimination in India , there is ..but not
in THIS case that bru mentioned. Yeah there are discrimination against the
girls ..but I am sure the situation has improved a lot in the last few years.
Sapna being a girl might know better though.
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mynxcat
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response 15 of 51:
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Sep 19 15:55 UTC 2003 |
Discrimination against females has decreased, but I think for all the wrong
reaqsons. Sure, more women are working these days, but that's more because
of a financial crunch than spreading the equality. It's near impossible to
get by on one salary, so the wives need to work too. Of course when they get
home they're supposed to keep house and cook, clean etc. This isn't true of
all families, but of a vast majority
you'll find women working in IT companies, but very few of them actually make
it to higher posts. This is sadly evidenced in the company I work for. If a
woman is head of a department you can bet its admin or something like that
or a department that's mostly inconsequential. I see very few women tht are
higher up in the company and the few that are there seem to head departments
that are not thought that important. I've seen women who have great talent
not utilised to their potential, but the men are given better oppurtunities.
The discrimination is subtle, men seem to forge their bonds over cigaretty
breaks where women aren't present (very few women smoke in India.You will find
many men smoking, but when it comes to women, they're mostly the young "hip"
crowd that seems to think it's cool. And even there, smoking is slowly
becoming taboo, but this time for the right reasons)
I live in bombay, and though it is one of the better cities for women in terms
of the freedom and what they're socially allowed to do, you still have the
eve-teasers and the starers in certain parts of the city.
India has progressed when it comes to edquality among the sexes, but she still
has to come a long way.
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sholmes
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response 16 of 51:
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Sep 19 16:13 UTC 2003 |
The changes would be gradual ..like it or not age old traditions ( howsoever
bad ) won't go away in one day.
I don't know much about women being discriminated in jobs .. but one factor
also plays a part is that ..when a woman marries more likely than not she
would quit her original company and get a job in a different city etc where
her husband works. Many quit after having a child , so quite a few woman don't
get promoted due to such.
This was also pointed by some airforce guy in a magazine , women are expensive
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sholmes
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response 17 of 51:
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Sep 19 16:15 UTC 2003 |
damn lost conmection i guess
anyway it was pointed out that women were quite a financial liablity in the
Indian Air Force .. they trained a few and one gets pregnant and take s afew
mnth's leave .. and all the money spent on their training gets wasted.
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mynxcat
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response 18 of 51:
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Sep 19 16:31 UTC 2003 |
discriminating against women because they can get pregnant is the highest form
of discrimination that women face. Other countries have women in their
air-forces. I don't think that it would sit very well if that reason were
given to not allow them to join the air-force.
Men get married and move to other cities too. However, it never occurs to
companies not to promote them on those grounds. Whetrher a person chooses to
work after marriage or a child is an individual decision, and should not be
generallised to all of womankind. One case comes to mind in my compan. My
manager told me how all her peers were given on-site asignments, but she
wasn't because she was a married woman. I think the decision should have been
upto her if she thought she wanted to go or not, not the company's. (All I'm
saying is she should have at least been asked what her priorities were instead
of people assuming she wouldn't want to go). It's evident that her career
never quite took off because she was a married woman.
Using marriage and pregnancy as a basis to discriminate is still just that
- discrimination against women.
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sholmes
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response 19 of 51:
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Sep 19 16:38 UTC 2003 |
ah you got me wrong ..
Those are not basis for discrimination but some of the factors which works
against women
yes men do move to other cities .. but you have to agree that when men do move
it is mostly for a better job , better pay etc .. women unfortunately do not
have such freedom .. as I said most of the times its the woman who moves to
the place where her husband is working and not vice versa. Unfortunate but
true. And when they do move its not generally to a better job , better
position , better position. Unfair yes ,..but that's the way it is.
Other countries have women in the airforces too .. but Indian air force is
not that rich to have pilots on leave for vacation on extended periods.
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mynxcat
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response 20 of 51:
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Sep 19 16:43 UTC 2003 |
Whatever the reason people move to other cities, you don't discriminate on
that basis. What's happenning is that companies are assuming that women will
get married and move or have children and quit. That's not theirs to ssume.
A lot of women get married to men in the same city. Why should they lose out
just because the company fears that some women will move once married.
It may be an economic factor with the Indian Air-Force, but the statement that
women get pregnant being used as an excuse to not have women on the air-force
just gets my goat.
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sholmes
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response 21 of 51:
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Sep 19 16:48 UTC 2003 |
I never said discrimination was right , I just pointed out the factors. It's
not the companies job to assume ..but they to do their own risk analysis I
guess.
Take the case of a man and his wife who is 7 months pregnant. The man can go
fly and fight , the woman cannot.
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mynxcat
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response 22 of 51:
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Sep 19 16:53 UTC 2003 |
What's the risk analysis in asking a woman if she's open to taking an overseas
assignment instead of just overlooking her.
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sholmes
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response 23 of 51:
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Sep 19 17:01 UTC 2003 |
Okay I wasn't talking about the overseas job thing. BUt the other factors I
have mentioned. A woman is more likely to quit cos of marriage / pregnancy
than men . Once unfair situation of the woman being made to change jobs cos
of marriage and not vice -versa I am sure things would change for the better
. The root of the problem needs to be solved first. A company wouldn't give
a shit to who is promoted a man or a womanas long as they earn revenues for
the company.
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albaugh
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response 24 of 51:
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Sep 19 17:07 UTC 2003 |
Drift: Chrissie Columbus did *not* discover *America*, regardless of the
misinformation we were all fed in grade school.
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