The Otherworld

Dec 10 04:17 UTC 1995

I've been thinking recently about Otherworld(s).  
To me it seems that there are several ways to think about it, and I was
wondering about other peoples perceptions of the otherworld.  This 
includes both where we go after death, and those otherworlds we can
perceive in everyday life.

response 2 of 61:

Dec 10 15:53 UTC 1995

About two months ago, I finally finished _By Oak, Ash, & Thorn_ by D.J. Conway
(an author I have now learned to depise).  Anyway, *it* says that "Celtic
Shamanism" does not conflict with any religions at all- then contradicts that
statement by basiclly saying "be a goody-tow-shoes or else"!  Also, *it*
includes paths between the upperworld and underword which traditionally lead
to specific places in specific pagan religions (i.e. the rainbow bridge, more
commonly known as Bifrost, is meant to lead strictly to and from Asgard- but
D.J. says it leads to the "upperworld".  D.J. also goes on to use its
brain-only research to say that everything is done voluntarily, that there
is no such thing as a diety forcing you to do something- whislt all other
religious and 'mythological' texts refute that statement.  However, enough
about Conway.

In the reincarnation item- I stated that I could track without help the fact
that this is simultaneously my 6th and 7th human liftime.  One might wonder
why I am living two lives at the same time- well, actually I am not- part of
my soul just seems to be 3 days ahead of the rest.  I have never truly dropped
my worship of the Egyptian gods, I merely added worship of the Volsung
pantheons and learned more from there.  So I am now an Ancient
Egyptian/Volsung/Bhuddist/Apothoean and maybe I missed a few more philosophies
that I can identify with.  However, in terms of afterlives this gives me: The
Egyptian spirit world, Valhall + Gimle + Niflheim & Main Asgard,
Brahman/Atman, and Apotheosis.
The question is, which gods will take me- or *make* me?

response 4 of 61:

Dec 10 21:27 UTC 1995

 
        Most of the popular reincarnationist theories that I've read share
a common premise - that the human spirit or soul is fundamentally the same
as the person in life, and is capable of independent existence, or, with a
loss of memory and function in most cases, transmigration.  The Frosts and
most New Agey philosophy tends to view reincarnation as natural and
actually desirable, and more than a temporary delay in reincarnation to
be undesirable and causable by severe trauma or unfinished business of the
sort that would wrack the souls of the living.  Several Buddhist sects take
the opposite view, that escape from reincarnation is a noble spiritual goal.
 
        I have a few problems with most schools of reincarnation.  It's
plainly obvious that long-term recall can be affected by organic damage -
and while memory itself is poorly understood at a neurological level and there
is nothing to suggest that memory is stored in yet unrecognized ways which
may not be purely organic - and personality can be severly affected by
organic or psychological means.  This throws a serious wrench in the school
of thought that would have us believe that the departed are capable of
remembering their life and act much as they would when they were alive.
It does not prevent the transmigration of some vital part of the essence of
a living being, but it does tend to indicate that this vital essence, if it
exists, could not be recognizably human.  It also begins to sound relatively
tenacious to me - an overt attempt to cheat death.
 
        Personally, I'm leaning towards morphogenic field theories -
something that ties in relatively well with the Zen school of Buddhist
thought and pre-polytheistic Buddhism and Transcendental Meditation - that
all creatures are connected at some level as part of a whole, and especially
individuals that are genetically close - and possibly emotionally close.
Individuals, as a part of this whole, are capable of sharing experiences,
emotions, knowledge, all of the things that make up an individual identity,
but only to a limited degree while they remain individuals.  There is some
hard evidence of this, but I'm not really in a position to go into it in
detail, and admit that I lean towards the theory simply because of personal
preference, and because it's the first theory that I've encountered aside
from death-as-death that has some degree of validity according to the rules
of the observable universe.
 
        This provides no mechanism for incarnation, but if you accept the
premise that it is a natural consensus production of life and of living
organisms, then you have both a mechanism for incarnation and one for
reincarnation, as well ...

response 6 of 61:

Dec 10 23:54 UTC 1995

Wonderful question, Val.  Gee, whatever made you think of it? <g>
Your solution is pretty close to my own- I think we can leave "ghosts"
wherever we lived particularly intensely, whether or not we are actually
dead.  These ghosts have a limited ability to react to circumstances, and
change only within a certain range.  When they are done with whatever they
are working on, presented with the fact that they are dead, or whatever,
they often disappear.  What happens to dead folks?  Dunno- I suppose some
hang out and watch us, more or less resting, in the "summerland" or "other
side" or whatever.  They are most likely to join us when asked, since they
are still more tied to this life than anything else.  You raise a good
question, Jazz- with *what* are they remembering and interacting?  Dunno,
my sense is of a sort of "oversoul" or larger-than-linear time self which
helps one to select each life and which remembers them between times, etc.
We choose lives to help that self or spirit grow.  I think some folks may
jump from one life into the next pretty rapidly while others need more of
a break, and some spend time in their conception of heaven or hell until
they are done with that process- kind of an interim incarnation, but without
the "carne".  Actually, although I came up with all of this on my own from
bits and pieces, it seems to fit pretty well with the Celtic concept.  Is
anyone surprised, coming from me? <g>

Bjorn, I'm really glad I've never wasted any money on Conway's books.  Sigh.
What a mish-mash.  In Celtic conception, the ways to the otherworlds are
many- beyond 9 waves, through the mist, through a cave or a doorway, around
a tree or across a ravine- any liminal space can take you out of this
world, approached right. Nor is there the need for a particular "gate keeper"
like Heimdal, although Manannan often guides people to Tir na n'Og (the land
of the young), etc. or over the sea to the isles of the dead (same difference,
really).  I don't have *any* clear sense of a Celtic "upper world", although
every now and then there's a tiny sense of the gods (Tuatha De Dannan) peering
down at people in the process of meddling with them.  I'm specifically 
thinking of the story of Etain, who was born 3 times, the first as one of
the Tuatha De Dannan, married to a mortal, and generally had a very confused
and weird life.  In her story, it always seems as if someone's watching and
messing around with things, but that's just my impression, and it needn't
be from above, just feels that way.  Maybe 'cause she and her lover turn into
swans?...
Oh, as to the gods coercing, my sense is that they are more into trickery
or hard bargains if a simple (but forceful) request won't work.  But then,
you work with those rough-and-ready Norse types, eh? <g>

response 8 of 61:

Dec 11 05:37 UTC 1995

Re #6: I work with all I have mentioned.  All acept my personal philosophy
that my body belongs to my soul and that my soul belongs to no one - they
respect that independance.  Then again, I have only failed Vidar- and he does
not seem all that peeved...

response 10 of 61:

Jan 1 18:03 UTC 1996

I am a little rusty on my knowledge of the Ancient Egyptian religion, but upon
death, Anubis- god of Judgement weighs the persons heart against a feather
on a balance.  If the heart wieghs the same or is lighter than the feather,
the person may pass into the Egyptian underworld.  If the heart is heavier
than the feather, it is thrown to Ammit- the devil, who devours the heart.
What this does to the dead person, I am not sure.

<bjorn is seriously considering a spell to forver break his family ties with
one particular relative- but isn't sure he knows the right material
components>

response 12 of 61:

Jan 3 00:35 UTC 1996

Yes, perhaps I have been gaming too much.  But what is the cost of
such a spell to the caster?  My life... If I am lucky... for I also
want to break all possible ties in consecutive incarnations...
Too bad I do not have a bell available.

response 14 of 61:

Jan 3 08:03 UTC 1996

Bjorn, don't do *anything* for more than one lifetime.  It limits the
possibility of growth and change for all concerned.  It's a heavy chain.
Don't.
A bell is a good way of getting the attention of the universe.  So is
lighting a candle, but not quite as sharp.  Clapping your hands 3 times
works, too- it's just a signal.
Cost to the caster?  Another gaming concept.  Affiliations with the gods
have "costs".  Spells require focus, concentration and a certain amount
of energy- better gotten from the earth, etc. around you, and breaking
a tie requires absolute clarity and determination on your part, and
agility in ajusting to a new reality rather than trying to go back to
the old, bad, situation (a normal tendancy; humans are as inherently
conservative as we are dynamic- a fine balance).  Any other "buts"?

response 16 of 61:

Jan 4 06:05 UTC 1996

Reincarnation is for people who take "get a life" too far..
        I hope to have better things to do, myself, when I'm done here.

response 18 of 61:

Jan 5 06:01 UTC 1996

Jazz, I like that- if both parties end up laughing and learning.

Bjorn, there's a difference between Kharma- natural consequence for one's
actions, both good and bad, which was what the Lifetime (you believe these
folks?) show was getting at- and some theatrical "cost" in energy, stigmata,
special effects, whatever.  Everything we do has an effect on the univers,
and on ourselves.  If it's an effect you can live with; both the desired
end and the other ramifications, than you take the action.  Otherwise, do
not.  That simple.  If you move to isolate yourself from that cousin,
circumstances may come together such that *he* is within the family and
*you* are outside it- thus separated from him.  Could work the other way,
or something else entirely.  But you have to know *exactly* what you are
trying to do and why; long and short term.  As to future life times, I
sure wouldn't make any promises about them.  People change and must be
free to do so; both you and your cousin.  Don't tie yourselves together
by bonds of hate and duty, nor even of familial love- you may grow at
different rates, you may need to experience different realities, you can't
know that.  And in the grand scheme of things, very little is that important.

response 20 of 61:

Jan 5 06:45 UTC 1996

I don't know why only the Aesir and Vanir can hear that particular music,
but many people have senses that extend beyond the "norm".  Take it as a
gift of the gods and use it to learn to know them better as a token of thanks

response 22 of 61:

Jan 7 05:51 UTC 1996

Bjorn,  I periodically have to go back and relearn some of the most basic
skills, as I go through life shifts or personal crises.  Moreover, my
perception set has changed with pregnancy and parenthood.  That is, even
though I don't currently have a small "growth" within my energy field-
Gareth has largely developed his own, although not completely yet, he's
more 
"attached" than Timothy was- I don't have the painful empathic sensitivity
I did when I was younger.  But I do have much clearer and more useable
perceptions in other areas.  We change and adapt.  Sometimes things come
back, sometimes we find them in other ways, sometimes we just have to let
them go.  Perhaps you will find this music again, given peace and time and
focus.  

response 24 of 61:

Feb 12 18:40 UTC 1996

Re #16: Reality.....you can change it simply by changing the way you think,
so I've found.
Re #23: School is there only to instill some sense of work ethics and
motivation....too bad it also forces a measure of conformity on us. )=