response 1 of 58:

May 27 02:57 UTC 1993

Dear mta, I just sent you an e-mail about the cheat sheet and here is a new
and interesting topic which inspires me to respond. When I was still a Hindu
monk, myself and another monk went on a ten month spiritual pilgrimage across
the  the USA. We went with backpacks and sleeping bags, and we visited
monasteries' and spiritual communities of different religions. Most of the time
we slept ' wherever we were when night fell. and we begged our meals and
hitchhiked and  jumped freight trains all across the country.

One of the most amazing things that we realized as we went along was that the
pilgrimage had become a rite of passage. Though we were both in our mid-
twenties, and had been monks (initiated, ordained...) we still had not had a 
ritual experience that defined our being/becoming men.

Now, when I speak of ritual, or when anyone speaks of ritual, it doesn't merely
reflect an outward set of prescribed actions and symbols...it means that, but
more] more, it means that one's psyche is open to the mythopoetic way of
thinking/ feeling.

People live by laws, facts, events...and the soul lives through poetry and
feeling. That is why some rituals seem empty...when the poetry of the sym-
bols have been rendered inaccessible. 

Many new rituals emerge from the very syobols And actions of ordinary life
when only a few things are added...for men. one of those things is the 
atmosphere of non-competitiveness between the older males and the younger
one.  When we went to some of the most amazing monasteries, these wonderful
men enthusiastically encouraged us in what we were doing.  That "blessing" 
is something entirely beyond the scope of our ordinary experiences from age
one and on, because from birth we are in a subtle competition with our father,
and then we get the male authorities at school and in religion.

But when a stranger, and older man, takes time to bless us, we move into that
interior space that says, "Hey. This is something special. This is not an 
ordinary thing."

The bestowal of gifts COMES from the tradition of blessing...for in the
blessing, we are given s- sing we are given spiritual gifts, which the physical
gifts symbolize. So  whatever we are to be ordained to receive spiritually,
often a symbol of  that is given externally...and what we hold as talents, are
often the very  channel for receiving praise. It is onky competition which
turns our talents

response 3 of 58:

May 27 17:03 UTC 1993

     I have never gone through any formal coming-of-age ceremony or rite
myself, so I'm not technically qualified to advise you.  Like your friend,
I'm very new to the "spirituality thing" Also, my particular brand is a much
more individualistic sort then the average.  There is a value in solitude,
especially for a teenage boy who spends much of his life intricately linked
into social fabrics.  I remember when I was that age, I often felt a little
overwhelmed by all the social forces brought to bear on me, and I went and
found some places to hide.  They weren't all physical places, that was when
I discovered Tolkien.  I still haven't lost my love for the master.
     I guess what I'm saying is that there's a value in chosen solitude that
you might take into consideration.  Hope this helps.
     Chris

response 5 of 58:

May 28 18:59 UTC 1993

     Well then, with that encouragement, I'll go on a little farther into
the realms of the obvious.  It seems to me that the ceremony needs to be
tailored to the boy.  For some, an intensively physical experience might be
appropriate, for other a contemplative one, and again for others, being set
some task of social value and then being told, go figure out how to do
this.  I don't know your son, so I'm not in a position to advise which of
these (if any) make sense, but the idea here might give you some places to
start.
     CB

response 7 of 58:

Jun 2 15:52 UTC 1993

Actually, md, this planning comes after 3 years of him pestering for just such
a rite.  

Your comments on no solid line of demarcation are well made points, and I
think some acknowledgement of the things you bring up will have to be
a fundamental part of the message on his day.

On the other hand, there does come a time when it's proper to turn your
sights to what you wish to do with your time on earth--who you wish to
be.  These trhings are not for children--but as adulthood looms, it's
important to remind ourselves that growth becomes more of an effort in
adulthood than it was in childhood--but its equally necessary.

PC be damned!  I've raised my kids to believe that gender is irrelevant
until puberty--am I now to tell them that it doesn't mean anything after,
either??  ;)

There are certain things that being female/male do mean--whether they are
PC or not.  Unfortunatly my female experience has only made obvious what
being a man means missing out on.  That's not the legacy I want to give
my sons.  OK, they'll never experience the magick of menarche, nor of
pregnancy or birth, or nursing their child.  So, what is it to be a man.
It's (I hope) not Monday night football, or strip clubs with the guys--
my Dad's definition might come close to that.  

response 9 of 58:

Jun 6 20:39 UTC 1993

Misti, I've been giving this a lot of thought since you first entered
this item, and ya know what?  I still can't think of anything especially
masculine to be celebrated with a ritual.  Kind of pathetic, really.
The best I can come up with is competitiveness, overcoming obstacles
and the like - how athletically inclined is your son?  Or maybe a
Native American-style vision quest would be good.  A friend of mine went
on one last weekend, and she really enjoyed it.

response 11 of 58:

Jun 7 01:37 UTC 1993

I understand your feelings about the masculine Rob, I have been searching
for years to underd the masculine. In my life, (of only 24 years),
I can think of few men that have inspired me, but many women! 
Praise the Godess for those women, they have taught me more about being 
a man than men! But as women (and men) are revitalizing the Godess
archetypes, men, we, must do the same. It's not aeasy thing I agree, 
but unless we do it, it's not going to happen. Most of the Men's 
circles that I have attended are little more than testosterone ranting
sessions, I think those of us that are concerned must stand up, and
begin to reclaim the aspect of Man that we can be proud of, and pass
that on in rites of passage!
It's not an easy task, but then niether is going through life with 
, as the genetic symbol of abuse!
\
-Sorry about the soapboxing, but it pisses me off beyond words, to think of
what my Ansestoral "fathers" have done to the image of man. I understand
why men are hated, but I hate being hated simply because I am a man!
IO PAN, Praise Kerunos, ail Chango, CABIO SILE!!!
-Phaedrus

response 13 of 58:

Jun 7 13:53 UTC 1993

It sounds like you've a healthy view of competition, most men see it as
a way to have power over another, not a way for both people to grow.
I understand the "hunter" aspect, it's strong in me too.
Have you ever listened to Spirit of the west, or the Crash test dummies,
a couple of good bands with cool men!
Phaedrus

response 15 of 58:

Jun 8 01:30 UTC 1993

There's no reason that this coming of age has to be couched in
masculine terms.  Instead of becoming a "man," this could be a
becoming an adult kind of thing.  Not so much the giving up the
things of childhood, but the beginning of looking at things in an
adult way and becoming responsible for oneself.

response 17 of 58:

Jun 12 14:27 UTC 1993

From Jesse: I am really glad to see all the activity on this conference. I am
not sure how to add to it, because 1 not sure how to add to it because 1) my
thoughts on this subject are related to intensely personal experiences and are
hard for most people to really  appe appreciate; 2) I don't have the usual bias
against male institutions, though I am critical  am critical, in a sense, I
feel that my manhood is no longer threatened by the patriarchy.

One direct answer to the original question is that your ritual will be con-
ditioned directly by your personal conception of what is spiritual.  If your
spiritual conception is not going to inform your ritual expression, then
what you are going to get is a ritual of social, and not spiritual form.

I am positive that a psychological event like this rite of passage, both
the spiritual and the social aspects are essential. Therefore, in order to 
"come into" one's spiritual and social responsibilities is and has been the 
principal content of such rituals, and this simply means that 1) you are 
suddenly awakened to the fact that you participate in the Cosmic Power (God);
2) that you are suddenly awakened to the fact that you participate singularly
(uniquely) in the organism of humanity.

I am sure that whatever ritual evolves out of your sincere desire to serve yy
your son will be an intimate flowering of your love for each other.

response 19 of 58:

Jun 19 03:35 UTC 1993

Dear mta, for me, any meaningful (practical) definition of manhood has to 
relate to our cultural associations which have preceeded our birth. Why?
because to uncover the uniqueness of our own personal "expression" of the 
male sprit means in a large part to "deal with" the cultural associations
which are almost subconscious within our selves. I noticed that much of the 
conference so far has been a discussion of stereotypes...

It has been a picking and choosing. A accepting/rejecting process, and this
dialogue represents accurately the contemporary search. But what about the
findings? (I am being didactic. I don't mean to offend any others here.)

What are the "positive" findings? Where are the "answers? 

When I reconcile myself to the subconscious imperatives of our American 
cultural associations with manhood as a focus, I find that there is a lot
of adventure in our tradition. Is that a debatable quality? No. 

The archetypes of manhood in America also stand for idealism, objectivity and 
fairness, and risking everything for truth. I believe that these archetypes
also inform the subconscious of women, too. 

In our cultural context of course, we refer to the New World, the Frontier,
(in effect, the same mythos that guided the Hebrews: A Promised Land; and 
later, the Christians: The Kingdom of God. Essentially, we are guided by an
ancient evolution of symbols and ideas...even though we express them and think
about them quite differently than our ancestors did.

For me, the most significant process of my rite of passage (at 25), was to 
"draw down the myth", so to speak. ( I might add that the period of rejecting
assumptions of masculinity took me from 15 to 25.) So it took a long
soul-search to draw the myth down.

Down.

Into the flesh, where, finally I began to live the myths. I 

Like md was  saying previously, when the man has the adventure of the child,
he experiences the ultimate continuity. To the child, when he experiences the
commitment of the adult, he feels like the man. 

But how to give that experience to a 13 year old?  Do we just give him the keys
to a car or a bank account and say, "here, son. Use this power?" What about
setting him up for a let-down, due to his lack of experience! Do we say, "Here
is a tent. Go to the mountain?" Well, probably he'll get pretty bored when it
datr starts raining for two days.

Do we ultimately disclose to him, "hey kid, there is NO ceremony which will
transform you instantly, no pill to take...and besides, it's all a question
of paradoxes and dualities and you may need 10 years to figure it out?"

He's going to wonder where the magic is in that.

I bellieve that one of the most concrete things you can do for him is to 
help him evaluate his own perception of his "magic"; and to bring him into
contact with older men who can help him to become wise. He may need, as I did,
to spend time with men whom I could love and admire...spiritual fathers.

A note abour wisdom. It is the last archetype I can mention now.  It is not
directly an American cultural archetype. It is European, Eastern andMid-Eastern
as well as indiginous to many other races and cultures. But you never hear of 
wisdom mentioned in American men past Ben Franklin or Jefferson. Somewhere we
lost the Wise Old Man. So you will have to find him in another tradition, if
your going to bring your son toward him.

I believe, at this point, there are several spiritual options. You will find
wisdom where east meets west. Find an old master for him in whatever field he
is open to: old sportsmen are there in every town. Old painters are not hard
to find. Old journalists are wonderful. The main criteria for you to judge them
is a simple question: do you admire them? If so, you have your possible
mentor for your son. If he is truly admirable as a man, don't you think yourr
son will "feel" it? I think he will.

Thank you for giving me the opportunity to share my thoughts and ideas with
you. Jesse.

response 21 of 58:

Jun 20 03:04 UTC 1993

dear mta: Thank you for your kind and encouraging response. Last night I wa
wanted to say so much...I relish these topics so much. 

One thing that I didn't mention last night is a relization I had about my own
mentor search. You see, I quit school at 14. I was free from that system, and 
so I had all the time in the world to meet my mentors. My mother is a very ad-
venturous woman, and she had me auditing college classes instead of just 
just letting me drop out of all educational spheres completely. In this 
"adult" environment I met my first teacher, a hippy artist who was wanderiing 
through the campus.

Now granted, he was NOT a developed man. He was incredibly immature, and prone
to all kinds of vices...but he taught me how to illustrate comic books, and
set me on an alternative path in the arts.

talk shadow@grex.cyberspace.org
who what when where?

response 23 of 58:

Jun 21 03:41 UTC 1993

Jesse, I think I know what you're saying...

I don't consider handing TJ the power to choose his own mentors to be any
excuse to stop putting good men in his path when I can.  It's more like
acknowledging that they can't teach him until chooses to learn from them.