A Word from the Loyal Opposition

Sep 7 21:21 UTC 1994

I thought people would be interested in this - the FAQ on
Wicca for soc.religion.christian.


Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
From: phoenix@cwis.unomaha.edu (Shannon Chris Saltzman)
Subject: FAQ: Wicca and the occult
Organization: University of Nebraska at Omaha
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 1993 02:30:00 GMT
Lines: 152


 1...What is Wicca?
 2...What is its view of christianity
 3...How organized is it?
 4...Is it in our communities?
 5...How is it related to Christianity (is it?)
 6...What about satanic rituals (Do they engage in them?)
 7...Sex Magick (Does anybody really believe in it?)
 8...How do I witness to a 'wiccan'.
 9...What sacrificial tools (if any) do they use?
10...Is it okay to experiment with Wicca?

 What is Wicca?
    Wicca is a pagan religion that predates judaism by centuries.
It primarily focuses on nature and the forces that run nature.  There
is a primary belief that Magick is just the force which makes everything
hang where its supposed to and that manipulating it is natural (indeed they
believe that to not manipulate it is unnatural).  Wicca sometimes employs
the use of a God AND Godess because it shows the balance of nature and
not just the male angle of it (although in christianity it is widly recognized
that God has both 'male' and 'female' characteristics(warrior,nurturer etc))
The belief in these Gods in more just symbolic than actually believing that 
they exist as real persons. Imagery is usually everything in this religion
and so most rituals in this religion are made bizarre by the exxageration
of imagery.

 What is its view of christianity?
    Wiccan people are as much into 'their' history as we are to ours.
They are not quick to forget the slaughter of hundreds even thousands of
pagans and suspected pagans by supposed christians.  Although most respect
Christ as a man of great teachings (but just a man) few really respect the
church of Christ .  They see all to clearly the bickering and backstabbing
that goes on in supposedly christian sects and to put it mildly think we
are idiots at times.
    It is important to note that it is from such things as sexual assaults
by church members, extreme and harsh judgement by christian radicals, and
a general misunderstanding of Christ's character arises Wiccans even 
Satanists (although I strongly hesitate to compare the two).

 How organized is it?
      Wicca has always been a 'make it up as you go' religion. Although some
covens do actually have time honored values and rituals, Wicca has never been
a completely organized religion with a central belief like a bible etc.
  Wicca organization is further hindered by the fact that most of their
peoples were wiped out in the height of their organization .  Much in the
way of history and rituals was lost (which may make christians happy but 
is far more harmful to Christ's cause than to theirs).
  Wiccan covens are on a rise but there is not a great amount of organization 
just yet although wiccans are pressing very much towards this end.

 Is it in our communities?
 In a word YES. I have absolutely no doubt that it is in every neighborhood
in america. Dont worry, wiccans are not out to 'take over the world' and
most could care less what religion you are ,let alone waste their time with
trying to change your mind.  The only thing that makes this dangerous is that
it is widespread and when someone strays from the church it is an easily found
outlet for the frustrations that sometimes builds up in the church.  As we all
know spiritual death is the real danger on earth.

  How related is it to Christianity?
     Much of christian ritual (Christmas, Halloween etc) is taken from pagan 
roots and made to be christian so that we could attract Wiccans to our church.
Mary was taken from a symbol of obedience to our lord and made to be the 
Christian "Godess". This is not to take any credit away from mary (surely the
mother of Jesus would need to be an exceptional servant to fufill Gods will).
Christmas for all of its glory to God was taken from a pagan ritual to
the Sun (Dec was when the sun was the furthest from the earth and it was 
believed that a ritual made it come back).  Wicca has many other similarities
in the worldly sense . Do unto others is equivalent to the threefold law
which says "whatever you do unto another will return to you threefold".
This might also reflect the sentiment "what you sow you shall reap".
Wiccans marvel at the wonder of creation and the value of it in the same
way any true christian would.  A true wiccan would tend to act in much the same
way as a true christian, with love compassion understanding and respect for all
the creations brought forth. The main difference (and for christians this must
not be minimized) is that wiccans do not believe in sin (as such) and do
not believe they need forgiveness other than to the person they wronged.
Without this realization even a belief in God will not bring them to the 
saving grace Jesus has provided for them. This does not make us better than
them, indeed we need to die to all pride and act in love, acceptance and prayer
BEFORE WE DO ANYTHING.

 What about Satanic rituals (do they enagage in them?)
       Wiccans mostly believe that Satan is something a guilty christian 
thought up as a scapegoat after he had sinned.  If Satan does exist he is
,to a wiccan, most probably bad karma returned to them for something they did
to someone else.
       So performing rituals to Satan would be as laughable to them as 
setting a trap for the tooth fairy would be to us. 
       Wiccans have a lot of rituals that are similar to 'Satanic' rituals
because when early satanists began to form actual covens they borrowed
rituals from the pagans (who better to borrow rituals from than the very
people the christians were trying to fight?).  But in respect to sacrifices
very few  wiccans do these, as it is contrary to their respect for nature to
do so.

 Sex magick (do they really believe in it?)
       There is a 'fertility' festival called beltain which is annually
celebrated. In the days of old, this was basically a massive orgy.  Todays
witch does not engage in this much at all because of the shaping of their
religion by christian ideals and the simple fact that being pagan doesnt
mean you are any more or less sexual than a christian.
     Some couples do attempt to gain 'energy' through sex because of the 
belief that there are only so many ways to bring up your adrenanline level
(which they believe increases magick energies), and making love is more
enjoyable and possibly less dangerous than some of the alternatives.
  
 How do i witness to a Wiccan?
       You have already taken the first step which is know what you 
are dealing with. The second is DO NOT try to change a wiccan. The church
has tried to change them their whole lives and it is quite possibly the
reason they turned to wicca to begin with. They will be VERY sensitive to 
this. Instead of trying to jam Jesus down their throats just talk.  Wiccans
are just as eager to share wicca with you as you are to share Jesus with them.
You will get a chance to further understand what they believe and will get a 
chance to share the beliefs you hold.  If you do not present everything with
"This is the way it is" and present it as "Thats interesting, here is how
I see that..." you will be pleasantly surprised at how much they will listen
AND you will not be written off as some closed minded moron, FURTHER you will
most likely be given more chances to share Jesus un the future. And pray,
above all pray. A wiccan could have 1001 bibles and have each version 
memorized and it wouldnt matter one bit if Jesus wasnt there to bring them 
to him. This isnt a fight to make them believe as you do this is a chance
to let Jesus do his miracle in their life. If Jesus isnt the reason for
you talking to them then who cares what religion they are.

 Sacrificial tools (do they use any?)
      In short NO. There are some that use them but they are in the minority.
There is a ceremonial sword called and ATHAME that is used for drawing lines
but if it is ever used to cut organic matter (like for cooking etc) it is
considered unfit to be used for such a ritual.

 Is it okay to experiment with wicca?
      Whats to experiment with? It is a philosophy not a toy. If you believe 
in it you do ,if you dont then consider yourself officially not wiccan.
The only things you could experiment with is the rituals, and there is a good
rule of thumb for this question. If it will take you away from God in any way
dont do it. To put it another way (and this may be a bit extreme) if it wont
bring you closer to God why are you doing it?

A FINAL NOTE:
Wiccans use a pentagram as their symbol. 
The star is right side up which symbolizes the spirit over the flesh (as 
opposed to the Satanists upside down or inverted star(flesh over the
spirit))
No symbol is evil in and of itself and should be treated as such.

-- 
MR SHANNON SALTZMAN *DISCLAIMER SEAL OF APPROVAL*
"Love believes all things,hopes all things,endures all things, Love never
fails" KJV 


Newsgroups: soc.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Wiccans
References: <30nhqk$8ap@geneva.rutgers.edu>
 
In <30nhqk$8ap@geneva.rutgers.edu> schennbe@ms.uky.edu (Richard
Schennberg) writes:
 
>An essential element in evaluating any religion is studying
>who founded it, and why.  I would appreciate if anyone could
>post details on the foundation of Gardnerian Wicca.
>A similar test should be applied to any religion or sect 
>before embracing or criticising it.
 
 Wicca was founded by the English civil servant and amateur anthropologist
 Gerald Gardner (1884-1964); he claimed he came into contact with a group
 of 'witches' and was initiated into Wicca by someone called "Old Dorothy"
 who, according to him, was continuing an unbroken line of pre-Christian
 nature religion. He says he just polished up and organized a bit the
 original rituals and teachings. The story is without much doubt mostly 
 (although perhaps not entirely) made up to give legitimacy to his own ideas.
 Wicca as gardner presented it was a mixup of western esoteric traditions
 (Golden Dawn, Masonry etc), Celtic and Germanic mythology and reconstructions
 of their religions ideas based on ancient written sources, surviving folk-
 lore, the theories of the anthropologist Margaret Murray, Charles Leland's
 _Aradia_, and so forth.
 
 Why he founded it? Probably just to present an alternative to straitjacket
 monotheism, may be in part inspired by an urge to break the norms of society
 a bit. Also, perhaps to reconstruct a more intimate relation between man and
 nature. But since he insisted that he's continuing an unbroken tradition
 this is just speculating.
 
 But I don't think any of this is very relevant in examining or 'evaluating'
 Wicca; certainly most Wiccans couldn't care less about how the religion
 started. It isn't a "revelationary" religion like the big world religions
 or most other neo-religions; Gardner has no special importance among Wiccans,
 he's given credit for starting things out, but he's not a prophet or a guru
 or anything like that, and his writings have little weight in how Wiccans
 view their religion. In any case, since Wicca isn't bound by dogmas, the
 religion has evolved a lot since Gardner's time and is in many ways a whole
 different religion (or a group of religions, actually); the emphasis on
 Goddess, for example, came after Gardner. It may be of some help to know
 how it started, but to evaluate Wicca based on what you know of Gardner
 would be totally misleading.
 
LVX,
-- 
Antti Lahelma           GNOTHI SEAUTON  "Tragedy is the farce that involves our
alahelma@cc.helsinki.fi  TUNNE ITSESI    sympathies:  farce is the tragedy that
University of Helsinki    KNOW THYSELF   happens to outsiders." --Aldous Huxley

response 2 of 45:

Sep 8 00:30 UTC 1994

The author is listed at the beginning of the document
as Shannon Chris Saltzman (phoenix@cwis.unomaha.edu)

Sadly, I expect a big part of this document's existence
is to help Christians "convert" Wiccans, the site I got
this from has plenty more file on such Satanic pursuits
as Dungeons and Dragons.  Hoo boy.

response 4 of 45:

Sep 8 14:56 UTC 1994

Justin, your input, especially when you are really thinking about it, is 
always welcome.  I think most paganfolk feel about the way you just described,
although being "only human", we don't always act appropriately.
Now, given that proceletyzing is a big part of many Xtian faiths, I'd much
rather see it in the terms of this article (that give me the opportunity to
choose their path if I need it or to leave it alone if my own belief is
sufficient) than in browbeating, threatening or "fire and brimstone" terms.

Brighn, I had seen this article before, in the Digest I believe, and reacted
about as you did- wish more of our own work was as clear.

response 6 of 45:

Sep 8 15:48 UTC 1994

Right, Kami:  Part of many Xian's faith is witnessing, and so it's simply
part of their religion to try to convert us.  Us trying to prevent that 
*attempt* would be us trying to change their religious minds, which is 
(indirectly) proselytizing.  Xians are more than welcome to share their 
beliefs, as long as they don't try to extort us or bully us.  
---
I asked about Worldwide Church of God on the Pagan Digest (UtherNet!
UtherNet! UtherNet!); I also asked my sibs about it.  One responded that
the document in question (I forget the name of it now) was normally
tolerant and fair because it was a devious front for an intolerant 
religion.  They have no political agenda; they are, in general, isolationist;
and they do not feel it appropriate to convert the non-believers.
Their "religious intolerance" is manifested in a cult-like treatment of its
own members (30% tithe, for example).  My sib's attitude that this, in itself,
was enough to make them powerful and scary, struck me as religious intolerance.
---
*sigh*  Xians in the main seem to be nice people.  Some of them (like the 
author of this article) seem to be misguided (in my view) but sincere and
well intentioned.

response 8 of 45:

Sep 8 16:03 UTC 1994

I dunno... most of the time it all gives me a headache..   :)

response 10 of 45:

Sep 8 19:33 UTC 1994

this looks like a cool item!
re: #5- good point.  I've really enjoyed talking with a few of my friends who
feel that their religion makes them happy, they'd be glad if it made me happy
too, but if I'm happy with what I have, they're glad of that, too.  So much
nicer- and representative of so much greater inner security- than the other
attitude that makes us gun-shy; "I've found something that makes me whole. If
you find it, you'll be whole too.  If you claim to be whole without it, then
that must mean I was lacking something (thus less than you), so you MUST need
what I found in order to be whole."  It has largely been my experience that
no one really converts, just discovers what they were all along.  I mean, a
true conversion would involve developing a whole new personality, set of
responses to one's environment, etc.  Few people go that far, and the over-
night conversions often come to people who bounce from path to path looking
for a panacea.  I'm sure there are exceptions.  

re: #6, pt. 2- hm, sounds a lot like the approach of strict Jews and various
other sects: isolationism and moral superiority.  Only dangerous if they are
armed militants or infiltrating the school systems.  Certainly they have a
right to live as they will, and such bits of reasonably accurate information
are a service to the community they seek to leave behind.

re:#7- I love a good religious debate, and wish we could more often share our
experiences and reaction to them without any implied demand that another person
validate them.  And "that doesn't match my experience/reading/beliefs" is SO
much nicer than "your wrong and going to burn/come back as a cockroach for it".

response 12 of 45:

Sep 9 10:07 UTC 1994

Call me a Xian and I'll kick your butt....
Sorry... but this irks me, as I've said before....
so sue me

response 14 of 45:

Sep 9 16:08 UTC 1994

This *is* a great item!
Good points all.
Thanks for the clarification on convert and witness gerald. Point taken.
I've become alot like you Rob, I don't talk about my experiences with non-
pagans, and even not with Pagans many times.
I'm not sure Pagans *do* witness. I don't live my life based on what I think ot
others will see or not see. I just am. Do my best to be a good guy, and look
good occasionally;)
I really hope the gap can be bridged but with people out there like the
Catholic Catholic priest that advocates the murder of doctors that perform
abortions... Gotta tell you, that gap widens! As well, there is a guy at work,
an evangelical xtian, who in coversation f found out about my religion...this
guy is driving me up the wall. His attitude is is, if it's not xtian, it is
morally wrong. So... I politely ignore him.

response 16 of 45:

Sep 9 18:05 UTC 1994

The minority Christians... ( thats with CHRIST in it thank you)
Are mostly not jerks... it's the MAJORITY that are.
The Minority have usually come a long enough way in their Christian lives
that they will not come off as what most of you seem here to deem 'fundie'.
Anyhow... i'm just having a ugly hour right now... lost my license
only to find it right where i looked originally...
and stress and stuff... I guess you'd call me a semi-minority/majority type
christian.

response 18 of 45:

Sep 9 19:26 UTC 1994

Conversion is a form of reassurance.  A wise man said" Spiritual beings
seek truth, religious people seek reassurance."

response 20 of 45:

Sep 9 23:05 UTC 1994

My mother is what you would call a "fundie", I prefer to call her a "roller"
She attends a church where they actually jump, shout, roll on the floor,
speak in tounges (I still think thier faking it) and do "laying on of hands.
I think she may be a little crazy with all her zealousy, but it seems to make
her happy, so i'll leave her to it.  The people at her church would probably
shoot me or try an excorcism if they knew I hang out with pagans.  I just
try to avoid them and live as I will and let others do the same.  Every 
time I see my mom she "reminds" me what time church starts, I just say
"that's nice mom", and sleep in.  I still consider myself a christian
but never believed in being pushy. Also organized churches never went over
well with me, too much politics and petty bickering.  As for witnessing
or converting, I figure if prople are looking to change, they'll find their
own way.

Well, enough babbling....Live in peace.

response 22 of 45:

Sep 12 01:56 UTC 1994

re: #19- good point. Although, I'm not sure if it's that the media don't like 
Christians, or just that they are geared to look for the sensational in any
group. I have seen some abominable pr about pagans, even when they aren't doing
the "eat babies and worship satan" bullshit but actually trying to be neutral
"look at this wierd true thing we found...".  I guess there's not much they can
get away with doing to the Jews anymore, so they ignore them, and the only
Moslems you see in the news, for the most part, are bombing something.  It
sucks!

response 24 of 45:

Sep 12 20:54 UTC 1994

Ditto on that.