response 1 of 31:

Mar 8 03:41 UTC 1994

In response to an comment in item 9 about the nature of the Germanic story
of Ragnarok that offered the idea that it might be a later Christian 
perversion of Germanic myth:

The tale of Ragnarok is actually the Norse version of one of the classic
Indo-European myth cycles.  These are the echoes of a much more ancient 
culture that gave rise to all of the Indo-European people (Celts, Balts,
Slavs, Norse, Iranians, Arryans [as in India], Greeks, Romans, etc.).  This
tale is common to all of these cultures and therefore must date back to a
time before they were divided into distinct cultures.  That places this tales'
age at somewhere over 5,000 years!  

In the Vedic Hindu myths from India the tale takes the form of the battle of
Kuruksetra.  The same themes were carried into the modern Hindu Mahabharata
which still retains it's resemblence to Ragnarok in it's protagonists, plot,
and final outcome.  (As an example: the Ragnarok characters of Vitharr and
Heimdalr show up as Visnu and Dyaus [in the Vedic texts] and Krsna and 
Bhisma [in the Mahabharata]).  

In ancient Iranian mythology there is also a tale of a final struggle between
Gods and demons which ends up with the world being turned into molten metal.
This story is from Zoroastrian texts and is called Fraskart.  It even includes
a parallel to the tale of Odin binding the wolf Fenrir and Tyr losing his
hand as part of the bargain.

Ancient Roman mythology also carries in same story in the tale of the 
Republican War and the battle of Lake Regillus.  It also has a character like
Tyr (Mucius Scaevola) who intentionally burns off his right hand. (There were
even Roman temples where the priests symbolically bandaged their right hands
in memory of the tale!)

In Celtic mythology the tale of the triumph of the Tuatha comes from the same
root.  Again there is a God named "Nuada of the Silver Hand" who also loses
his hand in the battle against the Fir Bolg.

All one BIG family...
Fox

response 3 of 31:

Mar 8 17:43 UTC 1994

Okay.  Paralell myths fine: Vikings and Saxons has the same gods,
with differnt spellings and slightly different pronounciation of the
names.  In all mythology books I've read, it is quite clear that
Ragnaroek is a Christian Perversion.  No religion would have the
deaths of their own gods.

response 5 of 31:

Mar 9 00:06 UTC 1994

I'm sorry guys but I'm not making this stuff up.  There is a well established
field of Comparative Mythology out there. (I didn't mean to sound that snotty
about it, sorry >8-}.  
I'm in the middle of dragging myself through "Comparative Mythology" by Jaan
Puhvel and recommend it.  It's a little dry at times but very informative.

This is more than I few parallels that we're talking about.  We know the 
histories and migrations of these peoples from Archaeological, genetic, and
linguistic studies.  We know that they were all living together, at what times
,
and when each of the different peoples migrated away from the source.  The
respective religions have an overwhelming similarity, far beyond the 
example of Ragnarok that I sited.  And for that matter the legal systems, 
social class structures, artistic styles, etc. etc. also fall into this.

Although it is true that much of the Northwestern European info was 
recorded by later x-tians with is not true of the Indian or Iranian stuff.
(Nor the Greek or Roman...I think?)  

Vidar, as far as these sources that claim that it was x-tian perversion, 
I would love to hear what they are, I'd like to check it out.

Fox

response 7 of 31:

Mar 9 04:41 UTC 1994

Vidar, you're NOT LISTENING! I realize Fox and I get a bit formal and abstract
at times, but we each tried to give a couple of specific examples.  I can go
 find whole stories to reprint here, but I hate to take up the time and space.
The point is that MANY cultures, some largely unadulterated, had apocolyptic
images- perhaps as a warning to live right while there was time, perhaps to
explain horrendous climatic events or the fact that their societies had 
started from after a cataclysm of which they had dim memories, whatever. 
Abhorent as we may find what the Xtian establishment did to others, the origin
of the religion is no less valid than many.  As they were gaining in strength,
the Xtian leaders were well known to co-opt native beliefs that fit with their
world view, so they may have GOTTEN the last-days notion from the Norse or
Hindus or Iranians.  Hard to tell.  I know it's hard, but try to evaluate the
content of Xtian religion in its oldest, purest form without the baggage of
crap that's been added by a few all-too-powerful assholes over the centuries.
It's good to get free of anger and hatred in regard to a large part of the 
Western world's population- save it for those whose actions earn it.

response 9 of 31:

Mar 9 21:28 UTC 1994

thank you, vishnu.  Hadn't read it in a while.  Come to think of it, are the
Norse gods expected to die an irrevocable death or just become obsolete?

response 11 of 31:

Mar 10 01:53 UTC 1994

Just as there are many forms of Vishnu, such as Krishna?

response 13 of 31:

Mar 12 05:45 UTC 1994

axe, which part didn't you get?  have you read the whole item yet?

response 15 of 31:

Mar 12 06:56 UTC 1994

what was confusing- refer to something specific or ask a question.  One of
us will try to help.  I wonder where Fox has gotten to lately?

response 17 of 31:

Mar 15 01:55 UTC 1994

Re#11: Sort of.  The AEsir left after Ragnarok are Modi & Magni (sons of Thor),
Vidar and Vali (sons of Odin).  The surviving Vanir are: Vili (the will), Ve &
Holiness.  Vili is also called Will.


Re#Whoever cares: I don't really think Ragnarok ever happened in the Myths
until
 Christian influence.  The story makes it quite obvious that a lot of it is 
Anglo-Saxon bullshit.  The rest may be untainted, but I ask you to compare
Ragnaroek to The End of the World and Judgement day.  You will see what I
mean.

response 19 of 31:

Jun 12 01:47 UTC 1994

Ragnarokk, Armageddon, it's all the same.
the thing is, there are some things central to our
way of thinking, and one is how did it begin, and one
is how will it end.

response 21 of 31:

Mar 7 19:59 UTC 1995

And now for something completely different...

My position on all this is rather different from that of most people
here.  My personal belief is that it is impossible, and in fact pointless,
to think about whether something exists or not.  All that I can know
for sure is that my mind exists (and possibly some sort of "spirit/soul").
Everything else exists only as far as I can sense it.

It is also, therefore, pointless to worry about the existence of
deities, as all we can know is what we can sense about them, and that
could well be false.  On the other hand, though, they are very useful
mental constructs--the thought that your prayers *will* be answered, and
al2)(*

response 23 of 31:

Mar 7 21:31 UTC 1995

AWK!!!  SOrry, cat on the keyboard.  Continuing

On the other hand, though, they are very useful mental constructs--the
thought that you prayers *will* be answered, and that there *is* a better life
to come, etc, makes life easier.

Unfortunately, this philosophy, combined with a very sceptical mind,
make it very difficult for me to have the blind faith that most religions 
require.  Therefore, for a lond time i've been looking for a religion that
I *can* belive in, because i *know* how useful a mental construct religion can
be.

kami:  the benefits are, at least in my experience, not physical but 
mental--increased confidence, etc., due to the belief that you are being
watched over.