|
|
| Author |
Message |
vidar
|
|
Runes
| 
Feb 5 22:35 UTC 1994 |
<<< Due to Popular Demand vidar & kami present: >>>
The RUNE item.
Runic alphabets are called futharks to reprent the first six letters: f, u
(also v), th, a (or o), k (also c in SOME). There are many runic alphabets but
the basic order remains the same: f, u, th, a, r, k, g, w:
h, i, n, j, p, y, z, s:
t, b, e, m, l, ng, o d
It is rather hard to write in runic on Grex since you must know which set
you are using. I know the Norse & Danish (both Danish that is) sets by
heart. Anglo-Saxon and Celtic take more time because the runes are more
elaborate. Many people have asked me to teach them "my" alphabet, and
when they do I correct them into thinking Norse runes. If you would
like more information, mail me or kami -- OR -- talk to one of us on
the street, but be sure to identify yourself.
|
| 231 responses total. |
kami
|
|
response 1 of 231:
|
Feb 7 01:10 UTC 1994 |
Actually, there are more sets of runes than that. I have a font, created by
Robin Wood, of the "Common" runes which are swedish/Danish. What I actually
use is the elder futhark- the 16 rune Norse set. The younger futhark has 24.
Anglo-saxon runes are similar but not the same. If by "Celtic Runes" you mean
Ogham, that is only superficially similar, since those inscriptions were only
found in the 3rd to 7th Centuries, are only in Irish, and did not come from
Norse or Saxon contacts. In addition to all that, there are other ways of
disguising Norse runes, including "short twig runes" and "i/sru/nnar". I use
the / to represent an accent mark. I/sru/nnar means "ice runes". This whole
discussion would be much easier if we could send runes and if I knew how to
edit responses such that I was writing in columns or something.
Vidar, if you will copy the comment here from agora which originally caused me
to suggest this move, I'll be able to remember what I was going to say. Or
else I can copy out the whole (relatively short) lecture on the elder futhark,
and how to make and use rune sticks. I have a few fun things that can be done
with runic magic.
|
vidar
|
|
response 2 of 231:
|
Feb 7 03:01 UTC 1994 |
I'm had a person (not friend, not enemy) make me a font of the what I prefer
to call the "Norse" set. What surprises me is the fact that this was six
months ago and he's not done yet! He only had to make it three sizes!
Anyway, what sound is that phonetic that looks sorta like a "z" supposed
to make?
I do remember one Danish futhark that had only 16 characters. I believe
this is the only one I've ever seen with a q in it. c and k are the
same often, X and Z too, sometimes Ks and X.
\
<:)
/
|
kami
|
|
response 3 of 231:
|
Feb 7 03:51 UTC 1994 |
cute smiley. not sure what you mean- a mark from phonetic transcription? I
can't remember such a one. What's the context? I believe the ng sound looks
something like a script z.
Here's my listing of the elder futhark. Tell me if it's what you mean by the
danish set:
the order is sound, name, meaning.
first family- freysaett:
f; fe; money, wealth, cattle.
u;urs; wild bull, physical power on physical plane.
th; thurs (thorn in AS), divine power on physical plane, a giant, Thor
a; aes (sing. of aesir); divine power, pure spirit.
r; reithr; travel, wrath.
k; kaun; inner warmth, torch, cozy.
2nd family- haggalsaett:
h; hagall; hail, destruction.
n; haudth; hunger, need, lack.
i; iss; ice, cold, winter.
a (short); ar; calendar year, with nearest rune(s) it shows the season
s; sul; sun, outer warmth, summer.
y; jora; seed, fruitfulness, w/sul refers to fall/harvest. w/iss it refers to
spring/planting.
3rd family- Tyrsaett:
t; tyr; bravery, courage, mastery of own fate.
b; bjarkan; birch, growth, increase, beginning
m; mathr; human being, mastery.
l; lugr; inevitability, slow but steady, waterfall.
y; yr; yew tree, flexibility, compromise, bending.
oh, yeah- jora is not really part of the elder futhark: just used for
divination.
well, I'm going to go watch Buckaroo Banzai and eat ice cream. Later!
|
vidar
|
|
response 4 of 231:
|
Feb 7 21:12 UTC 1994 |
The phonetic symbol was the translation of what is usually an ng rune. It
was like a 3 and a z at tge same time. The usual phoentics I'm used to seeing
in runes are the thorn under the th of course, and the n with a j on the bottom
for ng.
I don't know what the names or pronunciation of the set I use are but I do
know:
It takes a lot of room to make the runes on Grex. I will not even go for
the attempt. Also in what I use; c,k, and q are the same rune, x and z are
the same rune at the beginning, and if I need an x in the middle I use ks.
|
kami
|
|
response 5 of 231:
|
Feb 8 05:55 UTC 1994 |
I haven't really thought about equivalents for all the English letters in a
while, since I know they weren't all used in old Norse. Actually, I get a
bit annoyed at attempt to make two alphabets map exactly when they just don't.
Still, I used to try to figure out how to write English statements in various
other alphabets. C is irrelevant- look to the sound. A different initial
letter? I wonder where that came from? Maybe a holdover or borrowing as the
language changed? By the way, from where are you getting this knowledge? Just
curious. You know, I once thought about studying cultural linguistics, but I
hated trying to wade through phonetic transcription so badly that I gave up
after one introductory class.
What shall we discuss next? Perhaps differences in the meanings of various
runes between your material and mine? Or ways of using them? I have a couple
pieces of "magic" and part of a circle-casting that I have learned, as well as
ways of reading rune sticks and rune stones. I still want to make my own
set of sticks, but the rowan tree in my side yard says, predictably enough,
that I should wait a bit. I wonder if I might find a friendly apple or birch
to give me a suitable branch, but I will probably have to wait until the sap
has finished rising for the Spring. Oh well.
|
vidar
|
|
response 6 of 231:
|
Feb 8 22:25 UTC 1994 |
The letters C, and X have no place in any alphabet. The C sounds are made by
both the K and the S, so C is really a usless letter. X, since it can either
be pronounced as Z or as KS is also usless. Q, I am not sure about, but
I consider KU to make the same sound.
I have also noted some runes that are not part of the Futhark, but are used
only for worship and divination magic.
Those particular runes happen to be names of Norse gods, "toys" of Norse gods,
Symbols of Life, and Travel.
_|_ = Thor's Hammer
/|
/
(disregard the last two lines ^)
/|
/| = Odin
|
Other Runes would take a while to draw here. I use the rune for Odin, next to
the same rune upside down as a symbol for worship occasionally. I also use it
just because:
/| |
/| |/
| |/
Looks cool to me.
|
kami
|
|
response 7 of 231:
|
Feb 9 06:30 UTC 1994 |
thanks for making that effort. I'll have to experiment with it. May actually
work better than the font I have! I have never seen those particular runes,
but they make a lot of sense. On the other hand, there are already runes that
refer to Frey (sort of), Tyr, Thor, "travel", "life" (or at least seed) in the
Elder Futhark (plus the rune Jora, which is actually from the Younger Futhark).
How do you fit them in? Are they in a fourth family, or just separate? It can
be a problem to create runes that are mirror images of others, since such
reversals can be used in bind runes and are not expected to change the meaning.
More later. It's past my bedtime.
|
vidar
|
|
response 8 of 231:
|
Feb 10 00:55 UTC 1994 |
The way I fit these in is because the are part of Worship and Divination only.
I know not which futhark they come from (and we both know that there are many,
many, way too many to be counted). I wonder does any futhark really need the
equivlant of Y? Most of them pronounce the equivlant of J as Y.
Those particular runes came after the furhtark I memorized in 25 seconds. They
are mainly fortune runes. The complete list was: triskelion, mioelnir (Thor's
hammer, sorry, I know it's supposed to have an aumlet instead of oe.), Ash
tree (tree of life), Sun wheel, Ship, and an unknown. The unknown, I will
attempt to draw below, but I'm not promising it'll look right.
( | )
\|/
/|\
( | )
Well, it's supposed to be rounder.
|
kami
|
|
response 9 of 231:
|
Feb 10 04:46 UTC 1994 |
I'm still not comfortable with the extra runes- they mostly seem to duplicate
meanings that are already available. From another perspective, creating new
runes could be a useful meditation/studt tool & help to keep the system
dynamic. Sometimes I run to an odd sort of conservatism.
The question of whether a "y" is needed may depend on subtleties of the lang
uage- just as there seems to be a "ng" or a separate long and short "a": in
English these sounds don't own their own le
letters. Well, hope to be more positive and constructive later. When I get
better at working with an editor I will have to try drawing runes like that.
cheers!
|
vidar
|
|
response 10 of 231:
|
Feb 10 23:11 UTC 1994 |
with the "ng" it is surprising that there is not also a "gn" because "gn"
when written in the Norse futhark looks sort of like \/ \|
/\ |\
as opposed to "n" and "g" as two characters is that combination in reverse.
From another futhark, which I belive to be Celtic I wonder about certain
characters. Since I left the information on them upstairs, I cannot
qoute the phonetics in question. I'm still wondering what the "z" that looks
like "3" is supposed to pronounced as. Perhaps it is just a script "z".
Prnounciation seems to be the topic we have hit hard, so why not?
|
vidar
|
|
response 11 of 231:
|
Feb 15 03:51 UTC 1994 |
O yea, Skal! Sorry the first letter after z in the Norske alphabet is not
available for use on grex, nor is "ur" or "ae".
On the pronunciation, I am not sure it needs discussion here. That,
should be taken to snail mail.
|
kami
|
|
response 12 of 231:
|
Feb 15 05:24 UTC 1994 |
not produceable in ascii? again- alphabet differences: what Z?
we'd all have to be conversant in phonetic transcription to discuss pronounc
iation accurately, and I'm certainly no expert, but I don't see what help
surface mail would be- maybe we should try to arrange a Synthesis tea gathering
or bookshop crawl?
|
vidar
|
|
response 13 of 231:
|
Feb 15 22:47 UTC 1994 |
What I meant was Alt+0229 will not produce an a with an o on top on Grex.
I had drifted off the topic of rune, I was talking about the actual
Norwegian alphabet.
|
kami
|
|
response 14 of 231:
|
Feb 16 18:28 UTC 1994 |
I see. Yes, that was a minor irritant to me, too. I tend to just get lazy and
approximate the sound/symbol I want if the actual one isn't available.
|
vidar
|
|
response 15 of 231:
|
Feb 16 19:03 UTC 1994 |
I do that occansionally, but I think it's better just to Americanize
the word, if you know what I mean. I feeleth that thou dost.
|
kami
|
|
response 16 of 231:
|
Feb 16 19:22 UTC 1994 |
yeah, except when it makes a word hard to recognize. I'm really against
simplified spellings (ever come across that movement?) because I enjoy thinking
about the origins of words and the links between them. Even more important if
you are using a language for mystical/ magical purposes.
Vidar, why did you use the 3rd person singular of feel when you must have been
speaking just to me; you used the 2nd person (familiar) singular of do? Details
|
vidar
|
|
response 17 of 231:
|
Feb 17 01:04 UTC 1994 |
Sorry, I don't know middle english good. Erm, Well. I think your policy
is good too.
|
foxx
|
|
response 18 of 231:
|
Feb 20 15:53 UTC 1994 |
Hi y'all. I'm new to this (Grex that is) so hopefully I won't screw it up
too badly.
Anyway, I read the above posts and I have a question or two.
Kami, you mentioned that the elder futhark had 16 runes and the younger
had 24. This is exactly backwards of my information, which futhark are you
working with. I use a 24 stave "elder".
Others that I know of are: Norse Elder - 24, Anglo Frisian - 33, Viking Age
Scandinavian - 16, Guido von List's elder - 18[D[D[D[D[D[D[D[D
(the Scandinavian above is usually refered to as the younger futhark since
it was used most widely during the period 800-1500 CE, as opposed to the
elder which was used from some unknown date in the past up until about 800
CE (at least in Scandinavia and Germany). Also the 18 stave system above
is often called the Armanic Futhork and the Anglo-Frisian system mentioned
above is also called Anglo-Saxon.
Vidar - You refered to a Celtic Rune system. I'm not familiar with it, can
you elaborate? Also, the Odhinn rune that you mentioned (and handily drew)
is OS from the Armanic System corresponding to breath, spiritual well-being
etc. and is usually considered to be the equivalent of Ansuz in the elder
futhark. Ansuz is the rune that I learned to associate with Odhinn.
Fox
|
vidar
|
|
response 19 of 231:
|
Feb 20 21:29 UTC 1994 |
You heathen! How dare you put an h and an extra n in Odin!
Repent now, or Odin shall pay you for your treachery!
the Celtic system I refered to has the following wierd phonetic translations:
ea, st, & others which I have forgotten.
I'm sorry for flamming but the two proper forms of the high gods name are:
Odin & Woden
|
vidar
|
|
response 20 of 231:
|
Feb 21 21:13 UTC 1994 |
These are the translations of the futharks I know;
Elder Dansk (Danish)
f, u, th, a, r, k, g, w: h, i, n, j, p, E, R, s: t, b, e, m, l, ng, o, d
Younger Dansk
f, u, th, q, r, k, h, n: i, a, s, t, b, m, l, R: [e, g, y,]*
*Added Later
Norse
f, u/v, th, a, r, c/k, g, w: h, i, n, j, p, y, z, s: t, b, e, m, l, ng, o, d
Anglo-Saxon
f, u, th, o, r, k, g, w: h, i, n, j, i, p, x, s: t, b, e, m, l, ng, o, d:
a, ae, y, ea, _, k, _
g k
Celtic
f, u, th, o, r, c, ?, w: h, i, n, j, p, s: t, b, e, m, l, ng, o, d:
a, ae, y, io, ea [q, c, st, g]
Unnamed
f, u, th, a, r, k, h, n: i, a, s, t, b, l, m, r
The unkown phonetic in Celtic is described above.
|
foxx
|
|
response 21 of 231:
|
Feb 22 01:19 UTC 1994 |
I'd love to see these Celtic runes drawn in their proper form sometime,
pretty interesting.
Now, as to your flame-mail to my first post you said....
"You heathen!" -- no problem with this, it's true you know (except that I
don't actually 'live on the heath' which is it's true meaning).
"How dare you put an extra h and an extra n in Odin!" -- my response follows
How you spell Odhinn's name depends on where you are translating (or
borrowing) the word from. The form that you were insisting on (Odin) is the
Danish version of his name. In old english it is Woden. In old [D[D[D
Norse the name is O@inn. I used the @ to represent the old Norse character
"edh" which looks like a small case Greek delta that has been crossed like a
t. In the Middle Ages this character (and another called "thorn") were translat
translated into English as "th". Therefore, the Othinn spelling that I used
is that translation from Old Norse and is the most common form found in the
translations of the original texts that are the source of most of our
knowledge of the Norse Gods (see below).
"The two proper forms of the high gods name are ..." Two? Proper??
If you refer to the old texts (some of them listed below) you will find that
Othinn is known by numerous names (Old Norse - heiti) that reveal the
weight of his lore and his complexity.
Texts - (accents are being skipped for clarity): "Havamal"-The Sayings of Har;
"Vafthruthnismal"-The Lay of Vafthruthnir; "Grimnismal"-The Lay of Grimnir;
"Helgakvitha Hundingsbana I"-The First Lay of Helgi, the Hunding-Slayer;
"Reginsmal"-The Lay of Regin; "Voluspa"-The Prophecy of the Seeress;
"Harbarzljoth"-The Lay of Harbarth; "Grottasongr"-The Lay of Grotti;
"Sigrdrifumal"-The Lay of Sigrifa; "Atlakvitha"-The Lay of Atli; "Alvissmal"-
The Lay of Alvis; "Baldrsdraumar"-Baldr's Dreams; "Lokasenna"-The Flyting of
Loki; "Hymiskvitha"-The Lay of Hymir; "Fafnismal"-The Lay of Fafnir;
"Gesta Danorum" by Saxo; and "The Deluding of Gylfi" from "The Prose Edda".
Continued.....
|
foxx
|
|
response 22 of 231:
|
Feb 22 02:12 UTC 1994 |
Part two of my responce to Vidar's note: (see above):
Some of the many names for the Norse God Odhinn (or Odin or Woden...:-) are
as follows (with translations in parenthesis):
(I'm skipping accents again for clarity, as if I could actually USE them on
here!)
ALFATHER (Father of All); ATRITH (Attacker by Horse); BALEYG (Fiery Eyed);
BIFLINDI; BILEYG (One Eyed); BOLVERK (Worker of Evil); BRUNI (the name he
used when he was disguised in human form in the showdown of Bravalla);
FARMATYR (Lord of Boatloads [from his earlier role as God of Merchants]);
FENG (Gain); FIMBULTHUL; FIMBULTYR (The Great God); FJOLNIR (The Concealer);
FJOLSVITH; GAGNRATH (Giving Good Council); GALDRAFODHUR (Father of Magic);
GANGLERI (The Way Weary); GAUT (The God of the Goths); GESTUMBLINDI;
GLAPSVITH; GONDLIR (Bearer of the [Magic] Wand); GRIM (short nickname for
Grimnir); GRIMNIR (The Masked One); HARBARTH (Greybeard or Hoarbeard);
HELBLINDI; HENGIKJOPT (Hang Chaps); HERJAN (War God [actually translates as
'Lord of the Host', the Host being his army of the battle slain heros]);
HERTEIT (Glad in Battle); HJALMBERI (Helm Bearer); HNIKAR (Spear Thruster);
HNIKUTH (translates same as Hnikar); HANGATYR (The God of the Hanged); HOTHR;
HROPT; HROPTATYR (Hidden God); JAFNHAR; JALK; KJALAR; OFNIR (The Entangler);
OMI; OSKI; OTHR (Raving [considered the root word of Othinn]); SANNGETAL
(Truthfinder); SATH (The Truthful); SIGFATHER (Victory Father); SIGTYR;
SITHGRANI (Longbeard); SITHHOTT (Long Hood); SITHSKEGG (translated same as
Sithgrani); SKILFING; SVAFNIR (He Who Lulls to Sleep or Dreams); SVIPAL (The
Changeable); SVITHRIR (The Wise); SVITHUR (same as Svithrir); THEKK (The
Welcome One); THRITHI (The Third); THROR (Inciter of Strife); THUND; THUTH:
TVIBLINDI (Double Blinded); UTH; VAFUTH (Wayfarer); VAK (Wakeful); VALFATHER
(Father of the Battle Slain); VEGTAM (same as Vafuth); VITHRIR (Lord of the
Weather); VITHUR; WODEN; WODAN; WATONOS (Furious); YGG (the terrifier [the
name of the cosmic tree, Yggdrasill, actually means 'Yggs horse']).
I know that was a nauseatingly long packed together mess but I wanted to
show you that there are MANY names for the Norse Father God (at the same
time sparing others who may not be interested). As far as I know there are
at least one hundred names for this deity.
As far as your statement..."Repent now, or Odin shall pay you ....
The Gods are capable of defending their honor on their own.
Anyway, that all sounds terribly stuffy and academic but I hope you find
some use from it.
Beannu na deithe agus n'andeithe ort
Fox
|
foxx
|
|
response 23 of 231:
|
Feb 22 02:28 UTC 1994 |
Oh yeah, just to show you how carried away I can get ...
I forgot to add the tripartate forms of Odhinn (well, ok, Odin):
They are: Odin, Villi, and Ve; Odhinn, Hoenir, and Lodhurr; and Wodhanaz
(master of inspiration), Wiljon (the will) and Wihaz (the sacred).
ENOUGH ALREADY, somebody pull my hands from the keyboard!
Fox
|
phaedrus
|
|
response 24 of 231:
|
Feb 22 02:45 UTC 1994 |
Wow Fox...obviously well read. What got you interested in the Norse tradition?
And, what are the origins of the ADF.
More, more!!
-phaedrus
|