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void
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look, ma! a show-and-tell pagan!
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Sep 18 07:36 UTC 1997 |
a friend of mine is taking a comparative religion class, and has
asked me to visit her class and give a brief talk about paganism. while
talking about paganism is one of my favorite things, there's a
difference between a one-on-one discussion which can last for hours
and addressing a number of students for twenty minutes (that's an
optimistic guess; i'll have to ask my friend how long the talk is
supposed to be) and trying to encapsulate such a broad subject in so
brief a time.
in addition to my own beliefs, which are somewhat out of what i call
the pagan mainstream, i realize i'll have little time for anything
other than sweeping generalities. as always, the question boils down
to not what should be included in a brief talk, but what should be left
out. any suggestions or ideas on what should be included or left out
would be greatly appreciated. it's been a *long* time since i've had
to prepare a speech.
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| 24 responses total. |
kami
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response 1 of 24:
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Sep 18 15:45 UTC 1997 |
Eep! Tough one. I mean, if I were tossed into that pool, I could swim, but
I'm not sure I can tell anyone how...
Hm, I guess I'd cover things like
-what we are not
-some range of variation
-what we have in common; "earth religions", "goddess", "polytheism leading
to tolerance of other variations", etc.
-the range of concepts of deity represented, and perhaps the range in degree
of formality
-a little bit on the roots of neo-paganism and why it's *neo*.
But then, I talk pretty fast. <g>
Might want to cover Samhain a bit...
Good luck. Have fun. Plan to chat with folks for a bit after class.
Where and when is this?
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mta
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response 2 of 24:
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Sep 18 21:48 UTC 1997 |
I'd recommend putting Margot Adler's "Drawing Down the Moon" on the
"Suggested Reading for more information list". She's pretty thorough
and reasonably unbiased. (As a pagan herself, her biases tend to be
pretty positive.)
I'd stress that "neo-pagan" is a general term, like "Christian", and
maybe touch on the various "sects" -- like Gardnerian (the Catholics of
the neopagan set) and Dianic and Hearth witches.
I like Kami's idea of discussing the roots of the religion and
explaining why "neo".
I'd stress that pagans come in all walks of life, from professionals to
laborers, to the chronically poor.
My current coven for instance is made up of writers, law enforcement
officers, retail managers, engineers, social workers, moms, and computer
professionals.
A previous circle I belonged to was made up almost entirely of the
chronically un- or under- employed and "professional students". The
only things the groups had in common were their religion and a higher
than average educational level (well, and a love for books of all kinds.
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kami
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response 3 of 24:
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Sep 19 01:06 UTC 1997 |
Misti, the current bunch sounds a lot saner. I know that's a relative
term...<g>
You're right about pointing out that we're "just folks"--all sorts of folks.
And yet, whether or not you choose to bring it up in this talk, I seem to see
a pretty high overlap between pagans and SF fans, the SCA, comic collectors,
(and computer jocks <g>), among others--folks who are intelligent, flexible,
tolerant, educated, and not exclusively bought into the mainstream. But then,
that just might be the subset of the pagan community I tend to hang out in.
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mta
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response 4 of 24:
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Sep 19 01:25 UTC 1997 |
Actually, computer professions of various kinds are the single most
common field amongst pagans according to Margot Adlers research. It may
be that something about such an intensely logical career gives certain
people an urge to be creative in their spiritual pusuits.
(They may be saner. They're certainly more wealthy.)
I think the thing that characterizes almost all of the pagans I've known
is that they're seekers after knowledge and truth and they're willing to
wander down some pretty odd byways in search of it. Not just
spiritually but socially and intellectually too. We tend to be risk
takers. After all few of us were brought up pagan, we had to go find it
for ourselves.
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robh
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response 5 of 24:
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Sep 19 03:09 UTC 1997 |
(Anybody who knows me knows that I didn't turn to paganism to
*escape* logical pursuits.)
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jazz
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response 6 of 24:
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Sep 19 12:43 UTC 1997 |
Actually, I think there's another explanation for the commonality of
computer science and paganism - look at the social development and social
dynamics of both groups.
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kami
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response 7 of 24:
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Sep 19 16:27 UTC 1997 |
Elaborate, Jazz? Please go on.
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jazz
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response 8 of 24:
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Sep 19 17:19 UTC 1997 |
Now I know you're well-acquainted with the social dymanics of congoers
insofar as Convocation goes, but haven't you noticed the similarity between
many local pagan groups and many local sci-fi and fantasy groups, extending
into the fact that most members of one are either members or at least
interested in the other?
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kami
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response 9 of 24:
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Sep 19 17:27 UTC 1997 |
Yes, that link is what I was commenting on. But which social dynamic were
you referring to?
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jazz
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response 10 of 24:
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Sep 20 20:56 UTC 1997 |
Not to put too fine a point on it, both groups have a
higher-than-average geek and nerd population. I'm a geek myself, so I can
safely say that. :)
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birdlady
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response 11 of 24:
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Sep 23 15:12 UTC 1997 |
I think Kami pretty much zeroed in on what I had in mind, especially the "what
we are not" aspect. So many people believe that Pagan = Satan Worshipper.
Ugh. A brief history would be good, also.
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e4808mc
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response 12 of 24:
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Sep 23 20:02 UTC 1997 |
I tried the "defining oneself in the negative" one time, and a friend
suggested that it is much more powerful and persuasive to define the joyfull
aspects of your values, and leave the "dispelling stereotypes" to the very
last. After people know what you ARE, they have a good picture to replace
their stereotype with. Otherwise, you are letting the naysayers mold your
definition. Pagans (whoever they are) are not a negative reaction to
something. They are positive, centered people with strong values (at least
most of them want to be). I would suggest starting with the positive,
herstory of paganism, and leave the "what we are not" to the very last where
you can say something like, "As you can see, our religion has little room for
*stereotype x* behavior, and not many of us *stereotype y*.
(PS my experience was in trying to explain my religous beliefs to a group who
were very strong believers in another faith).
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kami
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response 13 of 24:
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Sep 24 16:23 UTC 1997 |
You know, Catriona, I think you may be right- and wait til someone voices a
misconception before you refute it.
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void
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response 14 of 24:
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Sep 24 20:48 UTC 1997 |
thanks, everybody, for all the suggestions and ideas. i really like
the idea of leaving the stereotypes alone until asked about them. my
friend has to check with her instructor about a specific date. the onlt
thing i have so far is that i'll be giving the presentation sometime
before thanksgiving.
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orinoco
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response 15 of 24:
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Sep 25 01:06 UTC 1997 |
The problem with the 'what pagans are' approach is that there isn't a single
definition of it. A while ago, I was trying to justify wicca as a religion
to some friends off in Canada who had only heard of 'witchcraft' as a
religion in the context of that damn movie 'the craft'. Being as I have
little real knowledge of wicca, it was nearly impossible to explain the
concept of 'magic' in that sense: no, they're not *really* flying around on
broomsticks, but it doesn't exactly do *nothing* either....
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kami
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response 16 of 24:
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Sep 25 13:51 UTC 1997 |
Where in Canada are your friends? I know more paganfolk there than anywhere
else. And the Canadian film board funded a trilogy of movies by some women
in, I think, Quebec. The Burning Times, I think, was one--a "history". Don't
recall the others.
Yeah, sorting out the magic from people's conception of religion is a
challenge. Prayer is magic...
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mta
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response 17 of 24:
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Sep 25 16:43 UTC 1997 |
I was challenged to explain this to the child of a friend recently. She
has been raised to be very pragmatic and non-religious, though some of
her family is *very* religious, which makes her slightly sceptical of
all things religious.
She was exploring my work paraphenalia and started asking questions
like, "does your magic make things appear?" My explanation was that no,
my spells don't make things appear out of thin air, it draws them to me.
So that, for instance, if I need a screw driver, and I don't have one,
my spell won't make one appear on the table, but it might very well draw
someone to decide to stop by and visit, and just happen to have one in
their car. It influences the world, and shapes it subtley.
I don't know if she believed me, but it seemed to satisfy her. Of
course her parents use "magic" pretty openly, they just don't call it
that. <g>
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orinoco
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response 18 of 24:
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Sep 25 21:21 UTC 1997 |
Yeah, the example I ended up using was that of Communion. No, you don't
*really* cannibalize Jesus' body, and no, there's no tangible physical effect,
but it's a powerful metaphor, and it makes you feel closer to your God.
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mta
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response 19 of 24:
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Sep 25 23:19 UTC 1997 |
This response has been erased.
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mta
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response 20 of 24:
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Sep 25 23:19 UTC 1997 |
Hmmm, except that I have often had tangible physical results, so this
wouldn't work for me. (Knew a woman who did several consecutuve
fertility rituals -- she ended up pregnant with twins!) You don't get
much more tangible than that. <grin>
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orinoco
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response 21 of 24:
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Sep 26 01:18 UTC 1997 |
Make that, 'Immediate tangible physical results'. I assume it wasn't *pop!*
she's pregnant! More like gradually affecting the natural process of things.
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jazz
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response 22 of 24:
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Sep 26 14:07 UTC 1997 |
What, precisely, is the lesser invokign ritual of the screwdriver?
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orinoco
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response 23 of 24:
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Sep 26 14:37 UTC 1997 |
<grin>
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mta
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response 24 of 24:
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Sep 27 07:41 UTC 1997 |
Depending on the emotional intensity of the need for a screwdriver and the
physical proximity of an Andre, it can be as simple as "Damn, I NEEDa
screwdriver!" If Steve is at work or it a minor niusance rather than a real
emergency, it gets more complicated.
(It's true, the "Poof, she's pregnant" part happened (so I hear) several
nights later.)
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