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| Author |
Message |
kami
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It's elementary my dear...
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May 22 02:31 UTC 1997 |
Wicca and most of the wiccan based neo-pagan religions organize their cosmology
around the Classical four elements, Earth, Air, Fire and Water. Various other
cultures use five- such as the Chines five elements: Fire, Wood, Water, Earth,
and Metal. The Celts seem to have found sacred Fire and Water in each of three
purely external realms, and the Norse saw 9 worlds created from Fire and Ice.
This is the item in which we can discuss our own experience of the 4- or 5- or
2 elements and compare notes.
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| 13 responses total. |
moonowl
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response 1 of 13:
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May 22 04:40 UTC 1997 |
Kami,
I thought wicca revolved around five elements: earth, air, fire, water
and spirit. No?
Peace, Love and Light, Moonowl
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kami
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response 2 of 13:
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May 22 17:13 UTC 1997 |
Traditions vary, but I was taught that the "fifth element" was in the center-
the synthesis we create of the four is the conduit to spirit, Spirit being
everywhere. It's not an element in the same way- not specific. If you look
at the points on the circle, the four elements are at the cardinal points:
N=Earth, E=Air, S=Fire, W=Water. Spirit is in the center. If you put your
altar in the NE (that's unusual), you might say that spirit is focussed on
the source candle on the altar, but that's kind of pushing it. If you look at
the points of a pentagram, Fire and Earth are on the bottom, Water and Air are
the arms, and Spirit is the "prime mediator" at the top, helping to move one
into the other; it's not an element but a way for them to be connected. Make
any sense?
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orinoco
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response 3 of 13:
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May 23 01:41 UTC 1997 |
Another variant I've seen is the wiccan four elements minus air--used by the
ancient Greeks before they figured out that air has mass.
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kami
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response 4 of 13:
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May 23 02:07 UTC 1997 |
Minus air? OK, I thought the 4 *came* from the Greeks--from Plato or
Pythagoras. What is the source for 3? My understanding is that the Norse use 3:
Earth, Water, and a "light element" which combines Air and Fire.
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bjorn
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response 5 of 13:
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May 23 02:29 UTC 1997 |
Wrong again. If one takes the three strand rainbow bridge Bifrost into
account, each strand represents one of three elements: The red, quite
naturally represents fire. The green represents water, and the brown strand
represents Earth. Light and dark are more or less concepts of good and evil
rather than elements.
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kami
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response 6 of 13:
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May 23 03:05 UTC 1997 |
I meant "light" as in "not heavy". I don't buy the "good and evil" dichotomy
real strongly. Even the Giants aren't "evil".
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bjorn
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response 7 of 13:
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May 23 13:26 UTC 1997 |
O. ;-)
None of the "immortals" are evil, true. Neither are they truly "immortal".
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kami
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response 8 of 13:
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May 23 18:15 UTC 1997 |
Exactly. And there are remarkably few gods who claim to be omnipotent,
either... ;)
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orinoco
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response 9 of 13:
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May 24 01:36 UTC 1997 |
Re #4: As I understand it, most greeks did belive in four: Earth, Water,
Air, and Fire. But early on, they did not understand that air has substance,
and so they just used Earth, Water, and Fire--like the norse system bjorn
describes.
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bjorn
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response 10 of 13:
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May 24 03:08 UTC 1997 |
Well, that part has its bearings in the myth that describes the sky being the
inside of Ymir's skull, which probably explains why the Volsungs didn't do
the air "element".
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kami
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response 11 of 13:
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May 24 18:47 UTC 1997 |
My guess, Bjorn, is that either those two statements are unconnected, or that
you've got the order wrong; that is, I suspect that the mythology as it comes
to us is later than some of the underpinning beliefs. Then too, since they
don't exactly "do" fire, yet they have beliefs and practices about fire, it's
probably just a different frame of reference.
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robh
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response 12 of 13:
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May 26 17:04 UTC 1997 |
The four element system was attributed to Aristotle, a comparatively
modern Greek (4th century BC). There were several centuries of Greeks
before him who probably used three.
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kami
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response 13 of 13:
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Feb 2 04:18 UTC 2005 |
Gee, I'd love to hear more about the archaic Greek 3 element system- or
any other way of ordering the cosmos which was current with the ancients.
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