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senna
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Football in America
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Sep 23 21:51 UTC 2001 |
Because I can, this is the fall football item. College and Professional
football has returned to the field this week following recent tragedy, with
moving ceremonies in every stadium this weekend.
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| 199 responses total. |
senna
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response 1 of 199:
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Sep 23 21:57 UTC 2001 |
Metro Detroit people who don't care about football: Participating in
discussions about the Lions will not be difficult this year. Just stare at
the ground, shake your head, and mutter something negative like "too bad" or
"it's a bad season" or "Nobody has sucked this obviously since Monica
Lewinsky" and you'll be fine. Seven interceptions, and 8 big plays of 15
yards or more given up to the big play Cleveland Browns offense (ha, ha),
and... you get the idea. To make it worse, the only team seriously contending
with us for the title of "worst team in the NFL," the Bears, shocked the
Vikings today.
The Bengals certainly aren't contenders for that title--they already have two
wins, one of them over the defending champions. Inexplicable.
Most notable to me were the anonymous commercials praising rescue workers and
declaring unity, amongst other things. Does anybody know who's putting the
money up for them?
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ric
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response 2 of 199:
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Sep 24 01:43 UTC 2001 |
SEVEN INTERCEPTIONS?!?!?!!?!?!?!?!?!?!??!
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krj
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response 3 of 199:
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Sep 24 01:58 UTC 2001 |
Awww, Detmer should have gone for the record, 8.
Maybe Charlie Batch wasn't so bad after all.
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goose
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response 4 of 199:
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Sep 24 02:32 UTC 2001 |
Yeah, bring back Charlie.
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gelinas
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response 5 of 199:
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Sep 24 03:12 UTC 2001 |
Can't bring Batch back until Detmar starts blaming his teammates for his
poor performance.
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senna
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response 6 of 199:
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Sep 24 04:05 UTC 2001 |
They compared their stats from the first two weeks, and Charlie's suddenly
looked pretty good. And then they started talkinga bout the third-stringer...
Batch has had a good attitude about this, but how can they move him back up?
I don't see what good writing off the season does at this stage, because
there's nothing to be gained. It's not like we have a Michael Vick of the
future waiting to be developed. The fans would only be angered by an
admission of irrelevance this early, and we haven't even seen what this team
can do at home yet. Remember, the Lions are a different team (when they're
not being booed) at home. They won't necessarily be a good team, but they
always surprise me. Course, the first game is against Saint Louis. Forget
it, we'll be lucky to see a single victory.
Huge matchups next weekend between the states of Michigan and Illinois. U
of M hosts Illinois, at Michigan Stadium, where Illinois has had tremendous
success over the last ten years. MSU visits Northwestern, who has several
good victories in recent seasons. The winners (only Michigan in this group
has a non-conference loss, and that was a tight one in Washington) will wind
up being the Big Ten's best hopes.
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lk
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response 7 of 199:
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Sep 24 04:08 UTC 2001 |
I didn't watch the Lions game (real football is played on Saturday, the
holy day of obligation), but did see an almost anonymous tribute during
some of the Sunday morning news shows. In the last frame, in the lower
right quadrant, I think I saw "GE".
Maybe they shouldn't have cut Harbaugh?
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gelinas
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response 8 of 199:
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Sep 24 04:09 UTC 2001 |
Right; they can't go back to Batch until he practices better than the others
for a couple of weeks running. And even then, he'll have to perform well
as a reliever. _Maybe_ then he can win back the starting job.
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jep
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response 9 of 199:
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Sep 24 13:12 UTC 2001 |
I was surprised they didn't put Batch back in for the 2nd half of
yesterday's game. Detmer was terrible -- 7 interceptions! The Lions
were bad even aside from his performance, with 10 or 12 penalties in
the 1st half.
I stopped watching after the 3rd quarter. I logged on later to make sure
they actually lost. I would have had to stop watching pro football if
they'd won. It wouldn't be right for a team playing that badly to beat
someone.
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danr
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response 10 of 199:
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Sep 24 15:52 UTC 2001 |
I say bring back Scott Mitchell.
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tpryan
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response 11 of 199:
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Sep 24 16:09 UTC 2001 |
What turns a respectable, good college football quarterback
into something that is a shame for an NFL team to put on the feild?
Is the talent gulf that big? Is it a matter of teammates and coaches?
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senna
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response 12 of 199:
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Sep 25 02:41 UTC 2001 |
A college quarterback can be good (even excellent) without possessing the
tools to succeed in the pros. Physically, you're required to make smart reads
and tight throws on every down in the NFL. You can get away with an awful
lot against slow, inferior defensive backs in college. Danny Wuerful, for
instance, just didn't have the ability to make it in the NFL, but he was smart
and accurate and tore up the SEC for years in Florida's offense. Throws that
produced long gains and touchdowns in college were suddenly batted away and
intercepted by faster, bigger cornerbacks in the NFL.
It's not just the tools that make the player, obviously. Brian Griese was
considered too slow with too weak of an arm to be a quality QB (granted, there
was a solid group of wise men backing him, but that was only after the
championship season--he had absolutely no future in football following 1996).
Ryan Leaf was highly desirable, wearing a gun mounted on his shoulder. Look
where they are. The keys to succeeding in the NFL mostly boil down to
intelligence and accuracy. If you can make good decisions and put the ball
where you want it, you can succeed. Miss either of those two characteristics,
and you throw interceptions. Detmer is smart, but he wasn't accurate
yesterday.
I'm not really doing the question justice. You can write books on what makes
a great quarterback and not get all of it. John Elway was a classic, athlete
quarterback who could make all the throws and make the plays with his body,
and he's a hall of famer. Joe Montana is nobody's idea of a physical
specimin, and he's a hall of famer too. Go figure.
Scott Mitchell is warming the bench in Cincinnatti. That would be laughable
if they weren't 2-0. Still, he's done in the league.
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jep
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response 13 of 199:
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Sep 25 02:59 UTC 2001 |
This item is linked as #13 in the Autumn 2001 Agora and #112 in the
sports conference.
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jep
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response 14 of 199:
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Sep 25 03:24 UTC 2001 |
You can look awfully good in college if you're on a good team, with lots
of other good players, which plays against inferior defenses. Brigham
Young University produced several outstanding college quarterbacks this
way; they could throw 4000 yards in a season, something no QB in a
conference with several good teams could do. Some of these QBs were
truly good QBs; Steve Young (Joe Montana's successor, and allegedly a
descendant of Brigham Young) and Jim McMahon (the QB who led the Chicago
Bears to a spectacular Super Bowl win) were two of them.
Michigan has 4 recent QBs who are either NFL starters or solid backups;
Jim Harbaugh, Brian Griese, Elvis Grbac and Tom Brady. (I'm not missing
anyone, am I, Leeron?) None of these guys was a highly regarded QB on
the national level when in college, but they're very capable NFL QBs.
The two who were real superstars; Rick Leach and Drew Henson; chose to
play baseball instead of NFL football. Leach didn't think a Michigan QB
had a chance in the pros because no one had ever gone from Michigan to
play a single down as an NFL QB.
A lot of great NFL QBs did go to schools which played strong
competition. Joe Montana went to Notre Dame, Bob Griese was a Purdue
grad, Bart Starr and Joe Namath went to Alabama, John Elway came from
Stanford.
A lot of great college QBs never made it in the pros. Heisman winners
Chuck Long (Iowa) and Andre Ware (Houston) were failures in the pros
while with the Lions. Charlie Ward (Florida State) never had a chance
in the NFL, but was a talented basketball player and still plays for(I
believe) the New York Knicks.
Darned if I know how anyone can have any idea if anyone can ever play
QB. (-:
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lk
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response 15 of 199:
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Sep 25 15:57 UTC 2001 |
You missed Todd Collins.
And there were M QBs in the pros, but that was B.B. (Before Bo.)
[I think Bob Timberlake is an example, but don't know much about pros.]
An interesting story about Rich Mirer, the ND QB who was a great M
football fan in his youth. When he played M, he actually wore a UM
shirt underneath his ND Jersey. Why did he choose ND over UM? Because
while watching Monday Night Football, Dan Dierdorf (another M Man)
mentioned that no UM QB had thrown an NFL TD in decades. (Either Harbaugh
was an exception or he was still a bench warmer at the time.)
As far as I'm concerned, Dierdorf put a jynx on UM QBs, reversing the
previous situation. Every UM QB since has done better than Mirer.... (:
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jep
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response 16 of 199:
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Sep 25 16:32 UTC 2001 |
Leeron, I understand that no U-M quarterback had ever played a down as an
NFL player before Harbaugh. I'll believe you if you say that's not true,
but can you provide some more information about it? Who, when, what team
did he play for?
I've been listening to WTKA-1050 AM a lot in the last couple of years, and
they've discussed this. I believe they've stated there weren't any, ever.
Thanks!
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senna
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response 17 of 199:
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Sep 25 17:01 UTC 2001 |
There are a couple of quarterbacks who've played in the pros, some from the
early half of the century. I don't have the resources available at work
(where I am) to verify this, but I can assure you it's true.
Grbac and Harbaugh held decent national regard, nothing spectacular. One of
the reasons Leach didn't go into professional football is that he wasn't (and
really still wouldn't be) a legitimate pro quarterback. He was an option man
first, second, and third. Ward had pro potential coming out of college, but
opted for Basketball as the better career. Money and physical well-being talk
loudly in such cases.
Talent development in sports is one of the great mysteries that make them so
much fun--there's no sure way to tell which prospects will grow into starters,
all-stars, and hall of famers, and which will play in a few games and never
be heard from again. Luck is certain a large part--The Denver Broncos mine
the lower rounds of the draft for players nobody remembers from college such
as Olandis Gary, Terrell Davis, and Mike Anderson, puts them behind a great
quarterback and the league's best offensive line, and turns them loose. All
three, when healthy, are now solid runners with confidence and skill. If they
had started elsewhere, though, I doubt they'd have accomplished much of
anything.
Lions fans have spent a lot of time wishing that the Lions had drafted Brian
Griese instead of Charlie Batch, but they're not thinking too hard about it.
Brian Griese was drafted by one of the best coaches in the league and spent
his first year learning from John Elway. He learned the ropes throwing to
two all-star receivers and handing off to three thousand yard runners (one
of them ran for 2,000, too) and parking himself behind the aformentioned
offensive line. Batch was drafted by the power-football coach Bobby Ross,
played behind a line of scrubs, and except for his first year has had
journeymen next to him in the backfield. I'd bet that if the situations were
reversed, Batch would be the one succeeding in Denver, with Griese struggling
to hang on.
Look at Kurt Warner. He didn't make his NFL debut for an awful team relying
on him to carry them (though we might have thought so at first). He has so
many weapons available to him--it's a setup for success. This doesn't say
that he hasn't become a great quarterback--he has composure, intelligence,
and accuracy that prove otherwise--but he was given a chance to succeed to
the fullest of his ability.
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albaugh
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response 18 of 199:
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Sep 26 06:28 UTC 2001 |
I still say that the last good Lions team was the wild-card entrant at 10-4
in 1970 (?) that lost 5-0 at Dallas. Bill Munson was the old veteran, and
Greg Landry was the up-and-comer who took his job. Until/unless the Lions
do what the Wings did, they're still gonna be the "same old Lions".
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senna
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response 19 of 199:
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Sep 26 11:31 UTC 2001 |
How do you define good? The Lions actually went 12-4 and won a playoff game
in '91.
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jep
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response 20 of 199:
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Sep 26 16:54 UTC 2001 |
I'm going to string along with the radio guys, that no U-M grad ever
played at QB in the NFL until Jim Harbaugh, until someone can cite a name,
year and team.
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senna
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response 21 of 199:
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Sep 26 17:15 UTC 2001 |
Suit yourself. I don't remember a Spartan QB playing in the NFL before Tony
Banks. :)
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senna
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response 22 of 199:
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Sep 26 17:38 UTC 2001 |
This guy didnt' play for Michigan State. Benny Friedman, QB, New York Giants,
1929-1931. You guessed it, he played for...
Jeff George is currenlty *not* playing for the Washington Redskins. He was
cut today, ending yet another promising sojourn with a team that was supposed
to win with him. Dan Snyder is the one guilty of presuming success this time.
The Redskins have scored three points in two dismal losses to San Diego and
Green Bay, and he is a large (but not the only) reason. They are now left
with... Tony Banks, who was cut by the Dallas Cowboys before the season in
favor of rookie Quincy Carter. I hope that George does not come here. We
do not need him screwing the Lions up, too.
The answer is Michigan, if you missed it.
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lk
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response 23 of 199:
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Sep 26 17:50 UTC 2001 |
I was going to mention Friedman (teamed up with Oosterban at UM), but I
also thought that Timberlake (who I mentioned earlier) played in the pros
in the 1960s.
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senna
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response 24 of 199:
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Sep 26 21:52 UTC 2001 |
He might have. Do you know who for?
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