An Athiest At A Wedding

Oct 19 13:27 UTC 1994

This may be more of a Miss Manner question than a Scrupples question:

You're attending a friend's wedding, and it's a full-blown Catholic
Mass with lots of Latin and chanting and getting up and sitting down
and kneeling.  If you are an atheist or agnostic or even just a simple
Lutheran wouldn't it be appropriate to just sit quietly through all of
the up, downs, and kneels (especially the kneels)?

response 2 of 25:

Oct 20 01:32 UTC 1994

I'd try to keep up.

response 6 of 25:

Oct 20 11:10 UTC 1994

Whenever in this situation I tend to just sit quietly figuring I'm
there to observe.  I wouldn't participate in such rituals without
first understanding what they meant and holding some belief in
what was behind them.  And if this end up concerning a true 
believer sitting nearby then that is his or her problem, no mine.

I'd consider the same to be true if I was visiting another country
where the custom was to stand and hold some pose while the
National Anthem was played.  I would remain quiet and seated
while respecting their traditions, but I wouldn't feel right joining
in so as not to offend or be conspicuous. 

response 10 of 25:

Oct 20 17:43 UTC 1994

Why would my not kneeling be a bother to anyone else?

response 12 of 25:

Oct 21 22:10 UTC 1994

Remember when the Bushes were in England and what a stir they caused by
not being appropriately polite to the royalty?  Remember, Mary, that the
kneeling is an act of deference to the diety being worshipped.  Not kneeling
says on of three things: (1) You don't believe in the deity, and feel it would
be rude to worship  a diety you don't believe in (2) You don't believe in the
deity, and feel it would be silly to worship a deity you don't believe in (3)
You believe in the deity, and don't feel like being reverent. The difference
between(1) and (2) is a subtle one.  In the first one, though, you are being
respectful of the faithful by *not* falsely worshipping. In the second, you are
being rude by implying that the deity is not real. The third is downright
blasphemous.  You are assuming that people would assume that you aren't
kneeling because of (1).  Most (or many) staunchly religious types might
actually assume (2), though.

response 14 of 25:

Oct 23 13:27 UTC 1994

I don't stand or kneel during a religious ceremony because I don't believe
in a god and it would be inappropriate for me to participate in such
rituals.  Instead, I sit in the back and off to the side, quietly
observing.  I feel this is the most respectful action I can take. 

But lets take a look at it from the worshiper's point of view. If someone
noted I was not kneeling and then started to fret about this, wondering
why I was not willing to participate and feeling somehow offended and
distracted that a non-believer would dare to behave in such a manner in
his church...  Well, I'm not sure such a person is getting his money's
worth out of being a Christian. 

From what I remember from my religious training the Christian attitude
would be to welcome non-believers into the church where they could see, by
example, word and *deeds*, what it means to be a Christian (or a Jew,
Hindu, etc.) For someone to go to Sunday service to then get angry because
someone else isn't kneeling, or wearing better clothes, or attending more
often, or whatever, is pretty hypocritical behavior.  Jesus would not be a
happy camper to see his followers behave in such a manner. 

response 16 of 25:

Oct 24 05:45 UTC 1994

I've used kneelers, and not found them terribly uncomfortable.
I am personally uncomfortable *not* participating, but certainly
can see how participating can make some people uncomfortable.  Since
Chelsea has not wavered the slightest in her original stance, I can
only assume that this item was intended as "here's my position --
tell me I'm right" rather than a sincere request for advice (a 
request for opinions, maybe, but not advice).  Personal attack/growling
aside, I'm not sure that I feel that a Lutheran, a Catholic, and 
a Methodist (to give three examples) are worshipping the same god,
but that's a subtle theological point that would be better argued 
in other confs.

Also, quite right that most religions (Christianity included) have
an open door policy on interested or open-minded folks.  My feeling, to
reiterate, is that to experience what it's like to be a Christian, 
one should really go through all the motions.  But I can hardly talk 
for Christians, no longer being one.

response 18 of 25:

Oct 24 16:52 UTC 1994

O.k., Mary, sorry for the grumping.  I originally misread your intention
in #0.

response 20 of 25:

Oct 25 13:58 UTC 1994

I think this is a tough one.  For some reason, if I remain 
seated when everyone else stands up it makes me extremely 
uncomfortable.  It probably harks back to that claustrophobic 
feeling when you were a little kid in a crowd of standing 
adults, wishing one of them would lift you up onto his 
shoulders.  Also, it has to do with not being able to see 
anything, which is especially irksome at a wedding.  So, I am 
likely to stand up with the crowd, if only to maintain my line 
of sight.  If others think it's because I don't have the courage 
of my Protestant convictions, let them.  (Actually, I can't 
imagine anyone giving a rat's ass whether I sit or stand.)  

But kneeling is another matter.  I've known *Catholics* who 
don't kneel, or who at most do what a "high" Anglican friend of 
mine calls "the low-church squat," if you know what that means.  
I suppose I'd make an exception, though, if I felt I was really 
making someone uncomfortable by not kneeling.  It hasn't 
happened since my parents were alive, but hey, you never know.  
I agree with chelsea that a true Christian ought to understand 
and forgive, but I also think everyone is there so the bride and 
groom can get married, not so I can test someone's faith.

response 22 of 25:

Oct 28 11:19 UTC 1994

To digress, all this shows how helpful it can be to give thorough
explanations beforehand if it's an occasion likely to bring a lot of
visitors.  I've been to funerals where the mourning customs and the
meanings of some of the symbolism were explained in a litle introduction
ahead of time which I'd bet made visitors much more comfortable about
participating to the level they felt they could.

For me, I agree with what I think Valerie said: I go along with the
ritual aspects of what's going on, like standing, sitting, processing,
etc., but stop short of saying things or taking individually meaningful
action if I'm not a believer in what's going on.

response 24 of 25:

Jan 16 20:50 UTC 1996

I went to Christmas mass a couple of weeks back.  I stood up and sat
down with the others and sang with them too, but I didn't kneel.  It
just seemed awkward for me.  But when everyone stood up and joined 
hands and then later shook everyone's hands and stuff, I went along 
with it.  I guess it's just do what you feel comfortable doing.  I 
didn't really think anything else of it.