response 1 of 68:

Aug 18 01:00 UTC 1995

  I dont think there is any way to tell for 100% sure who is certain they
want to die.  Michigan's most famous citizen, Dr. Jack Kervorkian, should in
my opinion be tossed in the clink the next time he plays god.  It is one
thing to show compassion, but it should be against the morals of any human
being to take another life or assist in the taking of another life.  In the
end the only person you are making feel better is yourself.

response 3 of 68:

Aug 18 03:28 UTC 1995

I also applaud Dr. Kervorkian. I conclude that a person *should*
have the right to take their own life. They should, of course, make
all necessary prior arrangements, so that no one will be harmed by
their act (e.g., their bills should be paid..). However, I also
realize that leanings toward suicide can be very ephemeral, as can
be personal "pain", anguish, or whatever. All people have mood
swings, and some have mood swings that take them over the "line" that
suggests suicide - and then back again, when they wouldn't even
consider suicide. The problem, of course, is that acting on their
mood on the suicide side of the line precludes them rejecting the
option on the survive side of the line. Therefore I think that there
should be some safeguards so that each person considering suicide
looks at it from "both sides of the line". 

response 5 of 68:

Aug 18 13:01 UTC 1995

   Quite right.   I'm in favor of letting people terminate their
own lives, but it needs to be done as a *rational* decision, and
not in haste.  When someone is in the state that Mary described
they aren't in the right frame of mind.  So I have no problems
with stopping the suicide of someone at first.  Perhaps even a
couple of times.  I know that the *vast* majority of people who've
been thwarted in their attempts have later seen this as a good
thing--they were able to overcome the problems, and ultimately
see that what they thought of as a life-ending situation wasn't
really that at all, despite the momentary pain.

   But if they still want to end their lives after some period
of time, and despite counsiling, they should be allowed to do so.
I knew a woman many years ago, who made the attempt twice only
to be "rescued" at the last minute.  This person had some really
deep mental problems compounded by a cyclic despression, which
even the strongest drugs could not stop.  I remember talking to
her sister one night, as she was recalling the days "therapy" with
a doctor who kept on insisting that things would be allright, etc.,
when the sick woman and her sister knew it wouldn't be.  Finally,
she performed what I would call an acting job and convinced the
doctors that they were right, etc., and said she felt better, and
wanted to go on a short vacation.  Borrowing the family car, she
wandered around the UP for a while, and finally chose a spot where
she routed the exhaust back into the car, and let it idle.  As her
luck went, a Delta county sherrif found her, and tried bringing her
back to life(!) again.  The was successful this time however and no
one who knew her was really surprised at what had happened.

   So there are cases in which people should be allowed to make
the decision to end their lives.  Unforunately, the Christian 
concepts of life override the concepts of liberties in most places
in the world.  The only exception I know of is the Netherlands,
where people can die, sometimes, if they have a terminal problem.

response 7 of 68:

Aug 18 15:30 UTC 1995

Linking this to scruples...

Well I feel that if the person has a terminal condition, then they do have
a right to die. Now phsyical terminal conditions can be diagnosied <sp!>
but emotionaly terminal people, are harder to weed out of the crowd... It
seems to me that if you leave a note that states, you are going to kill 
yourself, then mainly you are asking for help. I think if someone wanted to
kill themselves over emotional pain, then they would just do it, and not 
worry about leaving notes. Leaving a note is like asking someone to stop you
there by involving them in your life, and making it their bussiness to stop
you.

response 9 of 68:

Aug 18 23:04 UTC 1995

     I am a mudder.  That is, I've played Multi-User Dungeons (muds) for
a good couple of years.  Not those hard edge diku's or D&D clones, no.
I mud socially, on aber-style muds, in which the main goal isn't to kill
other players or something, but to talk a lot and socialize in a fake
atmosphere in which there just so happen to be computer-controlled bad
guys to fight. :) I once met this guy on the mud, the name of whom escapes
me now (sadly).  I never spoke to him very much, but he lived in the same
region of the state of VA as I do.  His attempt at suicide was a clear case
of a cry for help.  He logged on one day and talked to a few people in his
own introverted way and then before logging out, shouted "Goodbye Cruel
World!!!", which was a method of leaving which I had used for a while, so
I said to him "hey that's my line", and he responded with something like
"yeah, but I mean it." and well, before long I knew what he was alluding
to, because he wanted me to feel sorry for him.  I kept him talking long
enough to find out he'd been logging onto several other muds and announcing
his death, and many people were trying to track him down.  One person happened
to know his real name and made a few phone calls to find out where he lived,
and all the while I was keeping him online with rambling chatter.  Eventually
he just quit, spontaneously and dramatically, leaving me physically shaking.
He had apparently taken a bottle full of sleeping pills before logging on,
(or something of the like) and by the time he disconnected, a police car
was being dispatched to his home.  He was pumped out and sent to a local
psychiatric hospital in less than a week after the incident, and the whole
thing just shook me up pretty badly.
     Later, by about 3 weeks, he logged on again, from where I know not, and
told me "Fuck you, friend." and cut his connection.  I haven't heard from him
since.
     Verily, I don't know if the world is a better place with him alive in
it.  I can't be sure what was the right thing in that circumstance, but I
can't believe it benefits us as a species to have people killing themselves
because they're sorry for themselves, which if you get right down to it, is
always the reason.  Unfortunately for me, I also can't believe that you can
strip a person of the right to die.  Let's face it, btw, we're not talking
about the right to die, we're talking about the right to kill one's self.
     Igor, I most definately don't consider myself a hero in that case, nor
do I consider any of the others who helped set into motion the events which
prevented this guy's death.  However, I also did not follow this prevention
with any sort of pretense of personal responsibility for this person's 
mental health.  Truthfully, I 'passed the buck' of responsibility onto the
psychiatric hospital, knowing that they could handle it better than I could
have.  Looking at the bigger picture, saving the lives of depressed people
who afterwards contribute little to society is not always a step forward,
but that's another debate: efficiency vs. humanity.

response 11 of 68:

Aug 19 12:19 UTC 1995

Your all Going...oh never mind.  Death is my decision and mine alone.  You
do NOT have control of your lives, whatever gave you THAT idea?  Incidently,
That last entry is going to hell for the "FUCK YOU".  For I am the Lord your
God and I have Spoken. ;)

response 13 of 68:

Aug 19 13:26 UTC 1995

re 11 -- Welcome. Being omnipotent and omniscient -- perhaps you
could lend the Grex staff a little help? They are dedicated volunteers
and are performing a worthy service. 

response 15 of 68:

Aug 19 19:32 UTC 1995

<grin>

 There are a variety of reasons one might wish to kill themselves for. 
For instance, a soldier might throw himself on a grenade to save the
rest of his platoon.  A terminally ill person might wish to end their life
painlessly and with dignity.  Etc.  But, in Real Life, the vast majority
of suicide attempts are of the "impulsive" type - where a person is
depressed or suffers a psychiatric trauma (eg. significant other leaves,
etc).
 In the vast majority of cases, depression is a treatable illness.  Even
if untreated, depression will spontaneously remit over a period of several
months as a general rule.
 There is a *very* big difference between someone wishing to kill
themselves because they are depressed (treatable, self-limited illness)
versus the person who has sat down rationally and examined their life from
all angles and concluded after due consideration that perhaps a voluntary
termination of life is the best course.  The latter type of suicide is
what one might see in a person with a terminal illness, but even in this
situation, depression (treatable, self-limited illness) is often the
culprit.  For the person who has carefully thought things through, weighed
the choices, and made rational decisions free from emotional baggage, I
think most of us would be comfortable letting them take their own
life.  However, for the person acting out of depression or impulsivity,
preventing their death, even forcibly and against their will, is compassion.
IMNSHO, anyways.

response 17 of 68:

Aug 21 03:12 UTC 1995

I'm not sure I agree with you, Mark.  The kind of rational suicide I refer
to might be something along the lines of this:  a person discovers they
are dying of cancer.  Right now, they feel okay.  But, they know in
several months they are going to be in pain.  In addition, they are going
to lose the ability to take care of themselves, so either their family
will be changing his/her diapers, or the patient will have to have some
sort of hospice arrangement.  Obviously, when the person first gets the
diagnosis, they are depressed.  After awhile, they come to grips with the
situation.  They plan a final trip to see the relatives, and perhaps visit
a tourist attraction that they had never quite got around to seeing.  Now,
they decide that they would rather end things on a positive note, as well
as a more tidy one.  After talking things over with spouse, and perhaps a
few good friends, they decide on a particular day, and, well, there you
have it.  That's a rational suicide.  How often does it happen?  Dunno.
 It's true that I have never had to face suicidality on a personal level. 
But, I have seen death and dying on a number of occasions.  What I think
is that a person is entitled to a dignified death.  Yes, this is a
nebulous term.  For some situations, this means a death free from pain. 
For others, it means a clean death (eg. not having the patient drool all
over their loved ones, as an example).  For others, it is the setting of
the time of one's death, and perhaps the manner of it.
 There are a number of ways in which I would *not* wish to die.  Torture,
for example.  Or, at the end of a long, painful, hopeless attempt at
revival.  I think I would also not like to die in rage, or in fear.  It
seems to me, that to allow someone to die in the depths of hopelessness
and despair that is major depression, is to let them die a bad death. 
Especially (as I have stated), when depression is largely a treatable,
temporary illness.
 I don't imagine everyone will agree with me.  The ethical principles of
autonomy and beneficence (paternalism in this discussion) often conflict
in medicine, with gray areas of right and wrong.  Where you draw the line
is a difficult question, and will depend on your perception of the "facts"
and the principles in question.  For me, at least, I have made my
decision.  I think dying of depression is a bad death.  Compassion would
dictate that we try to prevent such deaths.  Again, IMHO.

response 19 of 68:

Aug 21 18:49 UTC 1995

And old "Dr. Death Kevorkian" visited another patient yesterday.

response 21 of 68:

Aug 21 22:14 UTC 1995

So, maybe she was making an irrational decision - but it was the best
she could do. I think she had the right.

response 23 of 68:

Aug 22 05:22 UTC 1995

A good friend of mine has had MS for almost 10 years. She's 35. She says
that MS rarely impairs your mental faculties, even as it ravages the
body.