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| Author |
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moonowl
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Pagan Meetings?
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Jul 3 07:05 UTC 1997 |
After having been to a pagan meeting at PSG, I found that I really enjoyed
meeting with others in recovery that looked at the world pretty much the same
way I do. I'm wondering how well a pagan recovery meeting would go over here
in ANn Arbor. ANy thoughts?
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| 154 responses total. |
void
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response 1 of 154:
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Jul 6 18:03 UTC 1997 |
it would probably depend on publicity and so forth. how 'bout
getting this item linked to synthesis?
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moonowl
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response 2 of 154:
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Jul 8 08:01 UTC 1997 |
sure, but only if you send me some e-mail just to let me know that you are
still breathing!!!
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robh
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response 3 of 154:
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Jul 10 21:19 UTC 1997 |
This item has been linked from Recovery 9 to Synthesis 110,
by the p*ssed-off former fw of Synth.
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kami
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response 4 of 154:
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Jul 11 07:02 UTC 1997 |
Hey Rob- what are you p.o.ed about?
Johnny- there are often 12-step meetings at pagan gatherings and cons-
probably a good thing, considering the prevalence of various substances...I
think it's a really good thing to have. Wouldn't mind having someone offer
to lead one at ConVocation, either...<small hint>
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void
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response 5 of 154:
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Jul 11 09:03 UTC 1997 |
thanks for the link even so, robh. :)
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bjorn
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response 6 of 154:
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Jul 11 12:50 UTC 1997 |
Although I'm not exactly sure what precisely is meant by response zero, it
is nice to once again see life in this conference.
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robh
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response 7 of 154:
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Jul 12 05:53 UTC 1997 |
Response 0 is the main "item" of the item, i.e. the part
before response #1. >8)
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moonowl
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response 8 of 154:
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Jul 12 07:54 UTC 1997 |
RE 4 = Well, now that might be a possibility...
I would love to see pagan oriented meetings available here in A2 also. I came
to understand that many christian communities would be hard pressed to accept
such a meeting.
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bjorn
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response 9 of 154:
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Jul 12 13:26 UTC 1997 |
No, robh. THAT I understand. I meant the content of response zero.
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robh
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response 10 of 154:
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Jul 13 14:51 UTC 1997 |
Ah, got it. I'm told that "meeting" is shorthand for
"twelve-step recovery program meeting" for those who take
part in them. I think moonowl is asking if there are any
local groups for pagans in recovery, and if not, whether
someone should start one.
(Note that recovering from Christianity doesn't count. >8)
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void
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response 11 of 154:
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Jul 13 15:45 UTC 1997 |
(although many of the twelve steps can be applied to that very
purpose. :)
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orinoco
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response 12 of 154:
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Jul 14 15:19 UTC 1997 |
<orinoco is reminded of the "Recovering Christian" T-shirt he saw a while ago
on the diag>
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kami
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response 13 of 154:
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Jul 14 19:45 UTC 1997 |
Most of the popular 12 step programs seem to have a thinly-disguised Christian
underpinning. That is, while they might refer to "your higher power" rather
than to Jehovah or Jesus in particular, the basic attitude; "let go and let
god", is a Chistian sentiment. Therefore, it can be really important for
paganfolk, to find a meeting that matches *their* sense of deity, so they
don't feel shut out and shut down in the very environment whose purpose is
to let them feel safe and protected. Am I right, Moonowl?
Which leads to an interesting question--if one were to construct a recovery
program with a specifically Pagan bias, what would it look like? How would
it be different?
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robh
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response 14 of 154:
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Jul 14 21:11 UTC 1997 |
Offhand, I'm not sure I can think of any pagan equivalent to
"let go and let God" that I would consider valid. Then again,
my relationships with deities tend to be less - oh, what's the
word, supplicating? - than most. Probably because my patroness is
a warrior/wisdom goddess who doesn't put up with shit like "I am
not worthy" or "you need to do this for me". >8)
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moonowl
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response 15 of 154:
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Jul 16 09:06 UTC 1997 |
The pagan equivalent to "Let go, Let God" is simple. "Let go, Let spirit."
works or insert Goddess or whatever your main diety is. "I am not worthy."
is a christian idea, no room for that. Let go, Let God/dess. has nothing to
do with being worthy or worthless. And "you need to do this for me" is not
a pagan ideal, to my way of thinking. I do say "Please, spirit, do this WITH
me." Then again, I am a co-creationist at heart.
Let go let God/dess is the evivalent of saying "What is, is, and I am
not empowered to change the whole world." This phrase is important to those
of us in recovery, which I separate from those of us who are staying dry.
"Let go, Let God/dess." is empowering, not giving power away. To those
that think that smoking pot is okay, I say "Let go, Let Spirit." Now, I can
be a friend to someone who smokes, as long as boundaries are respected on both
sides. That is empowering.
This addresses both responses in my way of thinking, which is only my
way of thinking. Most pagans who {attempt} to understand mainstream AA or NA
will not have the advantage that I have had, which is to have been able to
study the program with those who learned from the founders of AA.
It is like the pagan that says "I am not powerless over drugs and
alcohol." I say take three Ex-Lax and lets discuss what powerlessness really
means over coffee in the morning. I learned that being powerless means that
when I put alcohol into my system or drugs into my system, that I can not
garentee the result. It does not mean that I can not stop. It does mean that
I am empowered when I quit putting those things into my system, that I am no
longer giving my power away to those things. We, as recovering pagans
{people}, begin from a place of powerlessness and learn to be empowered. I
sponsor christians and pagans alike and the only differance is the angle that
recovery is approached from. Then again, I am a co-creationist at heart.
When I go to a meeting and am told that I must be Christian to recover,
I tell them that there is no room at the table for Jesus or Mohammad or the
Goddess. The people that I learned from did not speak to me of religion, the
spoke to me of universal, yes, universal spiritual principles which are the
foundation of the twelve step programs. I do not believe that it is amy
different for pagans. I would write the twelve steps for pagans as follows:
1) We admitted that we gave our power away by ingesting mood altering
substances, and that our lives had become unmanagable.
If our lives aren't unmanageable, what are we doing at a meeting in the first
place?
2) Came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to
a balanced way of life.
There are many powers that are greater than ourselves. If you aren't
convinced, go and try to stop a tornado and see what that spirit does with
you. Or the tide, or death of the body. And spiritual powers on other planes
are more powerful than we are: we call them the gods and the goddesses.
3) Made a decision to co-create our lives with the spiritual aide of the
creative force of the universe, however we understand that force.
This is the center of being pagan, of working Magick and yes of prayer.
4) Made a fearless and moral inventory of ourselves.
This one I would not change. It is vital for the recovering person to sit
down, take a look at who the are, to deciede what it is that they will
abondond and what the will keep. So much of our lives change when we stop
drinking or drugging and get into recovery. The longer and the more we used
the more this is true. Moral in this case means "Inner truth" nothing more,
nothing less. This is what I was taught, What are my inner truths? How Have
I not lived up to them in my using? We as pagans have high morals. "Do what
you will and harm none." I have never meet a drunk or a stoner that lived up
to that one when they were using.
5) Admitted to our higher power, to ourselves and to another human being how
we failed to live up to our inner truth, what our weaknesses are, what our
strengths are, and what we will do differently.
No we don't need an intercessor to go between us and our higher power. This
is not a confession. This is a cleansing. When someone I sponsor gets to this
step, be they pagan or christian, we talk for many hours about the things that
are here. We {begin} to discover who we are in this process. We discover that
we are not unique in our human experience. We begin to truely forgive
ourselves for the mess that our addiction has made. We begin to trust another
human. And now we are accountable for the changes that we wish to make. We
also gain tremendous insights into why we react the way we do, what our
patterns are and we gain the benifit of the others experience in dealing with
and changing those things that still bring us pain. We as pagans understand
the need for teachers and mentors, those that guild us. This is what this step
is doing by including another human being. We find someone who has what we
want, who has been were we are, who is somewhere close to where we would like
to be. They become our mentor and they share will us how to grow toward
balance. Balance is the goal of magick, of being pagan.
This is a long entery. I would like to skip to step eight, which AA writes:
Made direct amends to such people (those we have harmed) were ever
possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
I would write this one as follows:
Made direct amends to all beings that we have harmed, unless to do so
would cause more harm.
This would include trees and dogs, etc. It is hard for me to see so
many pagans reject AA and NA, for these programs and these people have taught
me so much about how to live free and full of joy. Many places aren't like
Ann Arbor, though. Many places are very christian in their meetings. What
these well meaning, vibrationally chanllenged recovering people don't
understand is that when Jesus (or the Goddess) is sitting at the table with
them, there is room for one less person who would like to find a way out of
the pain.
Having attended meetings for twelve years and having stayed clean
thorughout that time makes it hard to explain what real recovery is about.
Honestly, I can not think of anything that is taught in AA that can't be put
into pagan terms. The main problem comes from not understanding what is meant
in the teachings, both by most of those in AA and by most pagans.
Most of this entry is free floating and not well thought out, but I would
immensely enjoy "Translating" the AA teachings into the pagan language that
I love so much. So please challenge me to do this, bit by bit. Lets not see
whos right and whos wrong, but lets exchange ideas and thoughts. Let's not
take any of this personnally, for it isn't meant that way. My experience in
AA is very different from most pagans that I know and I would love to come
to understand why that is....
Peace, love and light!!!
Johnny Moonowl
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kami
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response 16 of 154:
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Jul 16 19:13 UTC 1997 |
Thanks for the analysis. It makes a lot more sense now. responses, "step"
by step:
1.Hmmm. Lives become "unmanageable"- out of balance- in many ways. I think
it's specific to people who exacerbate or respond to that situation with
altering substances, so it's a complete statement.
2. I don't believe that *any* power in or out of the world can restore a
person to a balanced way of life, unless the *person* does 90% or more of the
work- first, we have to give our own best efforts and begin to know our own
power, then we are "big" enough to encompass the aid of that spirit we're
calling upon, then we make room in ourselves and our world for that spirit's
aid and "enlargement" of our own spirit, *then* they can guide us to
wholeness. At least that's my version of how pagan prayer works...
3. I think that's part of my version of 2, I guess. Or follows naturally from
it.
4. Right on! And I'd add that self-knowledge is at the root of all magick.
5. Only works for me once you add the "begin to forgive" part- otherwise it's
adding to the burden that's making one's life unmanageable. And it follows
naturally from 4, doesn't it. And dear knows I'm still struggling with the
forgiving oneself part and may be for a while.
6. Your amendation of step 8 is a reasonable rephrasing, and yet, a difficult
and controvercial matter; what constitutes "harm" and what constitutes
"karma"? Do we need to appologize to every cow we eat, every gnat we squish?
They are living beings. What about cutting grass or ripping out weeds? What
about when blunt honesty *hurts* someone- is that necessarily "harm"? And so
on. Now mind, I'm not really focussing on the mindless harm people may do
when their blinded and clouded by drugs or poverty or anger or depression.
So, what are the other steps?
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robh
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response 17 of 154:
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Jul 16 22:48 UTC 1997 |
I'll repeat what Kami said for step 2. If I told my goddess that
I wanted her to take care of my problem for me, I'd get a javelin
slap across the chops. >8) I certainly don't deny that the gods
(and various other entity-thingies) can help me in various ways,
but I would never give up my own abilities in the process.
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moonowl
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response 18 of 154:
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Jul 20 05:03 UTC 1997 |
"Came to believe that a power greater than myself could restore me to sanity."
That's the original. This does not mean that a power does it for us, no, not
at all. What this step is refering to is the unlimited "resource" that a power
greater than ourselves is able to provide. This {spiritual} power is a guild
and works with us, not for us, nor us for them. This is the being of a
co-creational process, the root of magick is co-creation. Rob, if you asked
your goddess for help in solving your problem, you would get it. You give 100%
and do what you can and your goddess gives 100% and aides you in that which
you need assistance with. Co-creational process. If this is not the case, and
we are doing all things with our "self", then what need have we for Deity?
Kami, eating a cow or a carrot is a part of the nature balance of life,
and if we approach this part of our "web-ness" in a sacred way, than we are
moving with the flow of life and not against the "natural" flow of life. All
things must eat to live, all things must take life to have it. Our we so out
of balance as a people that we hold the cow above the carrot? Gratitude for
----everything----- that we eat is essential. Who am I to say that the cow
is less than the vegitable? I take life to live, as I am a natural part of
the Earth Mother, I do so with gratitude toward what I eat, so this one isn't
hard for me. The fourth step isn't about feeling "bad" about who we are. This
step is taken at a time when the individual can have some objectivity when
looking at the facts of the past. One of our main challenges in life is to
discover WHO WE WANT TO BE and than acting in that direction. Forgivness comes
when we learn not to judge ourselves at all. I am acting in an arrogant way
when I judge myself, my eternal soul, for I do not and can not have enough
information, wisdom, I can not see enough of the BIG PICTURE to judge
accurately. I am limited by the "Now-Me" and do not remember the "Eternal-Me".
Perhaps that helps some?
The rest of the steps:
6. Were entirely ready to have God remove these defects of charactor.
This is the original wording. Again, this does not mean that "God" is going
to make us perfect with the stroke of a magick wand. If I were asked to
rewrite this step in pagan terms, I would write:
6. Were entirely ready to invoke a spiritual aide in changing unwanted,
destructive behaviors and to invoke a spiritual aide in learning wanted and
constructive behaviors.
Again, we are learning how to co-create effect change in our lives to become
joyous, grateful, loving, blessing and accepting. And again, if we have no
need of spiritual aide, then there is no magick, is there?
7. Humbly asked him to remove our shortcomings.
This is the original wording and it speaks to an on-going process in life,
not of a one-time event. Why do we keep having relationship problems, money
problems, thinking problems or emotional problems? We are now clean and sober,
and we've been told that drugs and alcohol were the problem, right? So why
are we still stuck? Getting clean and sober mearly, yes, MEARLY gets us
standing up at the starting line.
Okay, so to re-write this one:
7. Seeing ourselves as we truely are, we continue to invoke spiritual aide
in the process of becoming WHO WE WANT TO BE.
being humble = seeing ourselves as we truely are...not to be confused with
being humiliated, which is a different choice. I might add "when we find
ourselves using old solutions." or something to that effect.
10. Continued to take personnal inventory and when wrong, promptly admitted
it.
10. Continued to take personnal inventory and when wrong, promptly admitted
it.
This is a good one, for when I have gone through my day and done damage to
another, it is imperative to repair. Love amends, fear defends. In this
process, we are not looking for a way to continue to beat ourselves up, we
are looking to continue to grow and be conscious humans. These are simple
summaries of what it takes 12 to 24 months for me to hand down to those who
ask me to sponsor them. I am shorting to give an overview.
11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with
God, {as we understood him}, seeking only for the knowledge of his will for
us and the power to carry it out.
original
11. By continuing to speak to and listen to our spiritual aide, we sought to
improve our conscious contact with spirit, seeking only to live more true to
our morals (inner truths) and to become more joyous, grateful, accepting,
loving and blessing.
As a side note, I believe that these are the only five attitudes of the
All is One, the Creative Initiator: constant joy, total acceptance,
uncondition love, continual blessing and pure gratitude.
Prayer = Speaking to Deity meditation = listening to Deity
sought = a way of finding
"Will for us" -- how is it that we are supposed to be? Ahhh, the most often
asked question in the lives of humans!?!
"power to carry it out" -- empowerment to move our "self" in the desired
direction
12 Having had a spiritual awakening as a result of these steps, we tried to
carry this message to alcoholics (and drug addicts) and to practice these
pinciples in all our affairs.
The part that most miss is the spiritual, not religious, awakening.
If we as pagans in recovery can set aside our fear of rejection long enough
to listen to the ancient spiritual principles that are just underneath the
thin vinear of Christianity, we may just find a rich spiritual heritage that
can only hurdle us headlong down a road of spiritual grow and unimaginable
empowerment to begin the process of discovering the real person within.
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cyklone
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response 19 of 154:
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Jul 24 00:30 UTC 1997 |
Well said Mr. Moonowl.
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jenna
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response 20 of 154:
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Jul 24 18:40 UTC 1997 |
I'm sorry to say this, but after reading all this I have a very simple
question. What are we recovering from, exxactly?
I can't tell if were alchoholic pagans, weight watcher pagans,
psychocopath pagans in group therapy... ummm?
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moonowl
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response 21 of 154:
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Jul 24 19:29 UTC 1997 |
Well, Jenna, I don't think it matters what we need to recover from, the
spiritual, emotional and mental issues address by the steps can be applied
to whatever your needs are. They work for all issues. Poets have even been
launched to new levels of creativity after having worked the steps!!! :)
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jazz
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response 22 of 154:
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Jul 25 12:30 UTC 1997 |
To the man with a hammer, everything looks like a nail?
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moonowl
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response 23 of 154:
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Jul 25 18:30 UTC 1997 |
No. The process is generic.
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jenna
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response 24 of 154:
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Jul 27 04:20 UTC 1997 |
umm... that's a little crazy, don't you think, Moonwol?
As its a recovery program... that;s just about asuming everyone
constantly has to recover using these st steps...
that's a little psychocoti for my (giggle psychocoti? -- psychotic) for my
tastes. I think if you can't handle most of your problems either
with just your won devices or those or your close confidantes
you need more than a 12 step program...
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