response 1 of 17:

Jul 21 19:47 UTC 1999

I'm not a pagan, and I think I may be biased, but I think it's important
to see how the two are related.  I don't think it's impossible to have
both healthy interdependency and independent strength in our lives.

Consider:

We are biologically created in mortal form by two mortal beings.  Thus, 
there is a power greater than ourselves in the fact that we cannot bring
about our own birth.

As the homo sapiens sapiens species, we are born with relatively little
survival instinct as compared to other organisms.  We are very dependent 
on our parents to survive when in infancy, more so than other animals.  
Research and observation seems to indicate that a lack of care for human
infants reduces their ability to survive, which may be as severe as death
or as simple as an inability to interact with the human society.

Based on these facts alone, the original step 2 may not apply if said 
greater power is negligent.  But the modified step implies that the human 
being posesses a Divine Power within.  Where does this come from?

Many theories and schools of thought suggest that humans possess an 
essence that is an entity unto itself.  Some call it the spirit, the 
soul, or the life force.  Gnosticism suggests that the Divine Power 
exists within this essence-- a spark of intelligence.  Buddhism and other 
Eastern ways seem to suggest that this Divine Power is shared by all 
living things, through an interdependent connection of these essences.  
However, one must tap into the realization of this connection to access 
this Divine Power.  This is why they pray and meditate.

But then, where does this essence originate?  Perhaps it comes from some 
sort of matrix, or another entity that possesses such a matrix.  From 
some, this is a godlike entity-- God or Goddess.  If such an entity 
brings forth this essence, then perhaps it imparts this Divine Power to 
it.

How are we then damaged within that we seek recovery?  Perhaps it is a 
blow to this essence.  How do we access this Divine Power?  It must come 
from somewhere, and we must be able to find out how to unlock it by 
returning to this source.   How is that done?  Perhaps, as I said 
earlier, by prayer and meditation.

Some suggest that empowerment eventually becomes transcendentalist, and
that a transformation is possible once a human fully connects with a 
source of the Divine Power.  The atheist Arthur C. Clarke seems to 
suggest this in his concept of the Star Child, in _2001: A Space 
Odyssey_, although he does not believe in a deity being.  He seems to 
suggest such a transformation in other ways at the end of the book, by 
vaguely describing mystical and fantastic beings.

My personal belief is that the greater power, whatever you see it to be,
is not like a monarch in that we simply bow down to.  My experience has 
been that it is a kind friend who seeks to untap the powerful potential 
it has given me-- and its goal is that I blossom and become like unto it-
- to experience this transformation that I just described.  Indeed, I do 
submit, but I am permitting it to guide me to look within myself and to 
see the strength I possess.  This entity is a being I call Heavenly 
Father, supported by a Heavenly Mother I know not yet, but that I shall 
someday.  Their names are irrelevant to this discussion, for they have 
many names, including, I believe, Gaia Mother Earth, and Father Sun and 
Sky.

I therefore do not believe the empowerment and the original steps are 
mutually exclusive of each other in their definitions or applications.  I 
see it to be possible to interconnect the two.

response 3 of 17:

May 9 04:45 UTC 2002

Walter-- how do you know the "gods" aren't like that?

Forgot the Third Law.

response 5 of 17:

May 10 13:29 UTC 2002

Well, then, that would seem to prove my point.

response 7 of 17:

May 11 08:11 UTC 2002

The Star Child wasn't anything like that.. he moved much too fast in 
his regular existence..

oh jeez.  this drift is really bad.  I am dropping this, because it is 
not helpful.

sorry walt, we need a few fw or we need to at least stay a bit more on 
topic.  You may not be in recovery, but a few people posting here.. 
the few that even are.. are.

response 9 of 17:

May 11 13:05 UTC 2002

Yep, there are some of us here.  BTW I'm here because I'm a serious
AlAnon booster.  I'm assuming that if there is a need/desire we could get
an AlAnon item going within the Recovery cf.  jaklumen, I nominate you as
fw.

response 11 of 17:

May 13 02:33 UTC 2002

Okay.. I got an e-mail from Walter describing just what the 
responsibilities entail.  Most of it sounds reasonable.

resp:9  I appreciate your nomination, C.S.  I'm still considering at 
this time, mostly because our baby is not here yet (although today is 
the estimated due date).  I'd like to see if the remaining 
participants would support this motion.  It has been my observation 
that conferences with only one or two fws generally have strong 
support invested in those individuals.

I am also willing to start an AlAnon item of sorts, but I would insist 
that the scope be broadened.  It is true that the 12 steps were 
created by the founder of A.A., but they have been extended to so many 
other groups, including the following:

Narcotics Anonymous
Overeaters Anonymous
Co-Dependents Anonymous
Sexaholics Anonymous
Sexual Addicts Anonymous
Gambler's Anonymous

..and many other organizations associated with the topics those groups 
address, which are addictions other than alcoholism.  Many 
abuse/survivor organizations also use the 12 steps.

response 13 of 17:

May 13 14:31 UTC 2002

Sorry about the editing problem, got the first paragraph in twice.

response 15 of 17:

May 22 09:28 UTC 2002

Has this conf died again?

response 17 of 17:

May 22 19:30 UTC 2002

It's never been terribly active.