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seraph
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heaven/hell question
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Jan 2 19:41 UTC 1996 |
Lately with all the holidays I've been thinking a lot about religion,
specifically christianity (which I'm not really part of, I'm Jewish), and even
more specifically the concept of Heaven and Hell. Many people I've spoken
to and books I've read seem to treat these as actual places where you can
experience either pleasure or pain. My question is how is it that people
believe, or rationalize out even, that you can experience these sensations
if your body is left here to rot on earth?
Any thoughts?
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| 35 responses total. |
eskarina
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response 1 of 35:
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Jan 2 22:55 UTC 1996 |
It all depends on where you place the line between body and soul. If you
don't believe you have a soul, that you are just a body, than the above
question cannot possibly make any sense to you. If you believe that all of
your thoughts are your soul, all your emotions and thinking patterns, than
of course the concept makes sense. Heaven and hell would be places of extreme
emotional pleasure and pain. Hell would be a place where you are entirely
alone, without God or anyone else to comfort you. A place where you are
permanently lonely, and just short of emotional death. Heaven is where God
and only God is, the only force, there to love you and then make you as happy
as you've ever been. This whole heaven/hell thing is dependent on the idea
that you believe that two forces are in the universe. Good and evil. Each
have their home bases. Heaven is where you would be happier than you can
possibly imagine here on earth, hell is where you would be sadder than you
can possibly imagine here on earth.
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rlawson
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response 2 of 35:
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Jan 6 17:31 UTC 1996 |
Hmm. I'll have to think about this question a little more before I respond.
Good question, though.
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robh
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response 3 of 35:
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Jan 8 02:55 UTC 1996 |
"T'were better to reign in Hell than to serve in Heaven." (Milton)
"Heaven is a place where nothing ever happens." (David Byrne)
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rlawson
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response 4 of 35:
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Jan 8 17:14 UTC 1996 |
Nice quotes, Rob!! Still thinking though.
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grexmjb2
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response 5 of 35:
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Jan 12 17:44 UTC 1996 |
These are very intresting points that have been brought up. As stated
above the dualistic interpration of the afterlife is a point first brought
about by Descartes. An intresting quote by John Milton from Paradise Lost
offers some insight into the question of Heavan and Hell. "Some make a Hell
out of Heavan and a Heavan out of Hell."
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jag2
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response 6 of 35:
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Jan 25 18:45 UTC 1996 |
Then there is the old joke about the card hustler who gets hit by a cab just
outside the casino. He dies (of course) and when he awakens, he is sitting
at a game of poker with a million gold chips in front of him. He is in awe!
After an hour of playing, and _never losing_ he wanders over to the slot
machines. Wonder of wonders, he can't lose at that, either! He then turns
to the guy next to him and whispers "I thought heaven would be a lot more
interesting." The man starts visibly and says "Who told you you were in
heaven, fella?"
But then, that's just me being overly cynical.
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dyl
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response 7 of 35:
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Jan 28 07:35 UTC 1996 |
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise , as some men count
slackness;but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish,
but that all should come to repentance.
But the day of the Lord WILL come as a theif in the night; in the which the
heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with
fervent heat, the earth alsoand the works therin shall be burned up.
Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons
ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherin the heavens
being on fire shall be disolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent
heat?
Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new
earth, wherin dwelleth righteousness.
II PETER 3
...Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of
man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
I Corinthians 2:10
==============================================================================
==============================================================================
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cyberpnk
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response 8 of 35:
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Feb 8 17:01 UTC 1996 |
If God is all loving, then noone is truly condemned, and even Satan is in somee
way God's own. Besides, If God made everything, how can He make something that
isn't acceptable to Him?
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orinoco
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response 9 of 35:
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Mar 6 03:14 UTC 1996 |
Playing devil's advocate...(God's advocate?) for a moment...
God made the world, and the *first generation* of life, according to the
bible, but later generations he can only control indirectly...nor does the
bible ever state, that I know of, that God is actually omnipotent. So, given
the judeo-christian version of god, it is certainly possible for something
God cannot accept to exist
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carson
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response 10 of 35:
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Mar 7 15:25 UTC 1996 |
but would he, or, to twist the question a bit, is there anything that
God could create that isn't acceptable to him? stretch the word
"acceptable" as I use it, please...
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orinoco
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response 11 of 35:
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Mar 10 13:51 UTC 1996 |
...being as the judeo-christian god is not omnipotent, he could very well make
a mistake
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carson
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response 12 of 35:
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Mar 10 14:16 UTC 1996 |
If he were omnipotent, he could still make a mistake. He could correct
it somewhat expediently, though. ;)
were you looking for the word "omniscient?"
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orinoco
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response 13 of 35:
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Mar 23 15:12 UTC 1996 |
good point carson
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jrm
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response 14 of 35:
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Dec 26 13:49 UTC 1996 |
I remember reading a book by Carl Sagan ( Broca's Brain ), that may provide
an answer to this interesting topic. Here is a summary of what I can
recollect:
A psychiatrist who had conducted research on people using psychotropic drugs
, and people who had near death experiences (NDE), reported similar 'visions'
and hallucinations - i.i. their vision of hell was something red, burning
etc..., and of heaven, as seeing a bright light at the end of a tunnel etc..
The remarkable thing about these similarities was that subjects chosen for
these experiments were of different race, religions and background. The
heaven/hell concept is most predominant in Judeo-Christian religions. Yet
people affiliated to other religions reported similar descriptions of heaven
and hell. And these descriptions also correlated with people experimenting
with psychotropic drugs.
What is the common thing that unites the entire human race regardless of race,
religion or background? Birth! One explanation offered to these
visions/hallucinations, is that somewhere in our brain, our memories of being
in a 'secure and cocooned' fetus (heavenly?), and the actual process of birth
( extremly violent with the outcome of 'seeing' light for the first time ),
is recorded. And somehow , these memories are 're-played' during NDE's or by
consuming certain drugs.
My opinion is that due to limited understanding of how the brain functions,
the idea of separate soul Vs body gained mileage because it was ( or is? )
the best theory to explain how we all function. Maybe in the future, as we
gain more light on the 'mysterious' functioning of the brain, this riddle may
be solved.
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orinoco
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response 15 of 35:
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Dec 27 21:50 UTC 1996 |
The problem with that is that they're switched. The light at the end of the
tunnel is 'heaven', so it should be linked with the womb, not with birth.
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ahtina
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response 16 of 35:
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Jan 2 07:02 UTC 1997 |
So what's * heaven * Daniel?
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orinoco
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response 17 of 35:
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Jan 3 23:17 UTC 1997 |
I'm not proposing an alternate theory...I'm always better at claiming people
are wrong than at explaining what is right :)
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ahtina
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response 18 of 35:
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Jan 6 07:00 UTC 1997 |
:)))
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cybrvzhn
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response 19 of 35:
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Apr 3 20:51 UTC 1997 |
Yes, I agree, it is much easier to prove someone's
idea is wrong than to actually come up with the
answer that's right. There is also something to be
said for actually forming your own opinion and
discussing it with others, rather than semi-blindly
quoting the bible. I'm not trying to get down on
anyone, I'd just like to see discussion rather than
interuption. I have read of some experiments where
the white tunnel/life flashing by thing was
reproduced and that it is actually caused by a
chemical process in the brain that can be duplicated.
Whether this is just a chemical process or a step
involved in the release of your soul from it's
physical container is a pretty tough question.
The problem is that we don't understand enough about
the human brain's physiology regarding thought and
memory to really come up with a solid answer.
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orinoco
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response 20 of 35:
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Apr 6 00:44 UTC 1997 |
I heard a theory once that any of the sciences, no matter how concrete, is
really just the study of how the human mind works--how it interprets data and
draws conclusions, etc. While I think that's going a bit far in some cases,
I would be hard pressed to find a clear line between religion and psychology.
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moonowl
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response 21 of 35:
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Apr 10 00:57 UTC 1997 |
===========================================================================
===========================================================================
Just my two cents worth....
The concept of "Hell" has an interesting history, and a short one in respect
to the length of time we two-leggeds have been walking around on this ball
of dirt. The Hebrews had no place called hell that I am aware of. This is a
christian belief, post-christ teaching, as is the concept of Satan. When Jesus
spoke of the place of eternal fire, the original word in Hebrew meant place
that always burns and was a referance to the garbage dump, which was always
burning. Later this concept was misconstrued and used as a fear tactic to
control the masses. This does not mean that there arn't negitive spirits in
the world, just that there isn't a conspiracy against your immortal soul.
============================================================================
==========================================================================
THINK ABOUT IT.
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orinoco
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response 22 of 35:
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Apr 13 14:03 UTC 1997 |
Well, you're right that before christianity, there was no 'hell' as punishment
for sinners that I'm aware of, but that's because in earlier religions *all*
dead souls were viewed as going to a place like hell. The Babylonians, the
early ancient Greeks, etcetera, viewed the realm of the dead as an unpleasant
place for *everyone*, good or bad. The real breakthrough in Christianity was
not the concept of hell, but the concept of a heaven accessible to ordinary
people, not just mythic heroes and demigods' favorite sons.
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moonowl
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response 23 of 35:
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Apr 16 17:24 UTC 1997 |
Orinoco, that well may be true for Western Religions, but not so for the
Eastern Religions nor the aboriginals of Australia, nor the native peoples
of the Americas. The was no hell here on the North American continent until
the arrival of Europeans, pardon the double meaning...
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orinoco
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response 24 of 35:
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Apr 17 02:50 UTC 1997 |
Yes, I was speaking about western religions in particular. Belive me, I am
well aware of the existence of a 'heaven' in aboriginal religion, or of
nirvana.
FWIW, though, your statement only holds true for western religions. Some
sects of buddhism, for instance, belive in the existence of various hells as
well as nirvana.
What I was trying to point out is that hell was nothing new for the early
christians. Heaven was. There exist religious groups (for instance, some
buddhists) who do not belive in a hell. For them the concept of heaven would
be nothing new, but hell would be.
Also, everything in christianity is a post-christ teaching. Christ did not
write any of his teachings down, and by some estimates even the four gospels
of the New Testament were not written until some fifty years had passed since
Jesus' death. This is not specific to christianity--very few early religions
leaders wrote down their teachings for posterity. Unlike christianity, most
religions that were based on an oral tradition died out. Again, yes, there
are exceptions, including Native American and Aboriginal religions, but the
vast majority of sects, cults, and movements that sprung up over the ages have
been forgotten because their oral tradition was broken and they hid their
teachings from unbelivers.
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