|
Grex > Reality > #18: New Truths about the Old Testament | |
|
| Author |
Message |
orwell
|
|
New Truths about the Old Testament
|
Dec 19 03:15 UTC 1994 |
As a practicing Catholic, I have studied the Bible intensively since
my youth and I have come to the conclusion that there were no explcit
miracles in the Old Testament. I bleeive that peopel take the miracles
in the old testmanet and call them "truth" without understanding
the context in which the Bible was written. I beleive that blind
faith is not the way to go. God puts plenty of meaning in the old T.
Miracles do not = beleif. Miracles equal meaning, greater truths.
The Bible could be written in the exact same way without miracles and I
could still beleive in it. It is the doctrine that is key, not
ssuperficial magic...
|
| 19 responses total. |
remmers
|
|
response 1 of 19:
|
Dec 19 11:41 UTC 1994 |
Are you saying that there are miracles in the New Testament, though?
I'm not sure I understand how you're using the terms. How do you
distinguish between miracles and "superficial magic".
|
gerund
|
|
response 2 of 19:
|
Dec 19 15:06 UTC 1994 |
It sounds like the way his terms are used is unclear.
|
nephi
|
|
response 3 of 19:
|
Dec 19 15:35 UTC 1994 |
Maybe he could explain what he means by them?
|
flem
|
|
response 4 of 19:
|
Dec 22 17:26 UTC 1994 |
Hoo boy, I see an argument brewing.
I, too, am a practicing Catholic, and I have no idea what you're talking
about. This is probably 'cuz I don't understand what you're saying.
Could you please clarify it a little bit?
|
randall
|
|
response 5 of 19:
|
Dec 23 02:35 UTC 1994 |
How can we place a value on a miracle, or even discern what a
miracle is unless God himself told us that it was indeed a
miracle. I've never seen one, but then again, I would know one is I did see
it.
|
gerund
|
|
response 6 of 19:
|
Dec 23 06:07 UTC 1994 |
Define miracle.
|
orwell
|
|
response 7 of 19:
|
Dec 25 03:02 UTC 1994 |
Allow me to clarify. Miracles can be defined either as a supernatural
occurrence or as an example of God's loving grace in action. What I am
trying to say is that some people look at a miracle in the old Testament
(i.e. the parting of the Red Sea) and think that since God is so great
and can do these powerful miracles, then he must exist and must be
powerful. To utilize the example of the Red Sea, the term "REd Sea"
was substituted for the "sea of Reeds" by a monk in the fifth century
A.D. who was copynig manuscripts. The Sea of Reeds is an actual river
in the Sinai Peninsula that will actually "part" when the wind blows
hard enough. But my point is that people focus on the miracle itself
not the MEANING of the miracle. We teach our children that these miracles
are the basis of the religion. Children think "wow, that miracle is rad"
and then begin to base their beleif on this instance. This mentality
often carries over to adults who base their beleifs of a supernatural
occurence, but missing the most important lesson the miracles show , i.e.
God's saving grace. One of the reasons that peopel fall out of the church
is not becasue they disagree with the doctrine. They fall out becasue
they become pragmatic adults and begin to doubt the possibility of the miracle
|
flem
|
|
response 8 of 19:
|
Dec 27 03:17 UTC 1994 |
Wouldn't that be all the more reason to believe in the miracles? If doubting
miracles leads to a loss of faith, then why go out of your way to do it?
I think that if you really tried, you can come up with a way to
rationalize any event that might be classified as a miracle. I have
at least one friend who I think wants to believe in God, but keeps
rationalizing themselves out of it. I don't think that the existence
or non-existence of God can be proven. At some point, you have to make
a choice whether or not you believe in God or your rationalizations.
|
orwell
|
|
response 9 of 19:
|
Dec 27 22:14 UTC 1994 |
greg, I would say "no". Here is why: why would god lie to you?
|
flem
|
|
response 10 of 19:
|
Dec 28 03:14 UTC 1994 |
I'm really sorry, but I fail to see the relevance of that question.
God talks to us, and we can listen to him and ask him questions. But
it's not something we can do easily; we're tooo human. The main problem
with asking God if he exists or not is that in order to be able to listen
to him, you pretty much have to already believe he exists. If you ask
God a question, and are really expecting to get no answer, you probably
won't get one, at least not an answer you'll recognize as such. Why does
God do this? Why doesn't he just appear to all agnostics, atheists, and
the like, and say "I EXIST, WORSHIP ME!" I think that he doesn't just
want our love and worship, He wants us to choose to love and worship Him
and believe in Him even though we aren't absolutely, completely sure he
exists. That's why he gave us free will in the first place, so that we
could make the choice for him.
|
orwell
|
|
response 11 of 19:
|
Jan 2 04:46 UTC 1995 |
greg, trying to start a religion is like trying to start a company.
Beleive it or not, people "sell" each other on religious beleifs. How
did the early Christians/Buddhists/Muslims become what they were.
The early teachers of this religion would say, "god exists. We know
becasue he delivered us from Sumerian chariots" The essence of the question
is: What do you base your beleif on initially? It is not the intricate dogma,
but Stories. You are exactly right when you say we are too human. Our caveman
ancestors saw fire and were amazed. The same thing has happened and will
continue to happen as long as these religions exist. My pint is that: the
bible has context- learn it. :)
|
flem
|
|
response 12 of 19:
|
Jan 6 01:54 UTC 1995 |
Of course the Bible has context. Everything has context. My point is,
the context ofthe Bible, or of anything else, doesnt' necessarily rule
out the possibility of miracles.
|
dylan
|
|
response 13 of 19:
|
Jul 5 18:19 UTC 1995 |
I think one of the main points about miracles in the Bible is that
although they show the nature God, they also show the nature of man.
Every miracle in the Torah whether it be the Red Sea, pillars of cloud
and fire, manna, plagues, prophesy, etc., just show really the
need for mans nature to be redeemed.
As the miracle would occur, the Israelites would praise and worship
back to their idol worship, murmuring, and other signs of
unbelief and what God deemed abomination.
The prophets later told of the greatest miracle of God to
occur sometime in their future.
In speaking of Jesus they also prophesised that few also
would believe in His time.
In speaking about those who wouldnt believe, Jesus maintained
the fact that even if they, with their own eyes, saw one raised
from the dead, they would still deny the Lord. They would not repent.
|
eskarina
|
|
response 14 of 19:
|
Jan 4 22:47 UTC 1996 |
Okay, so you apparently define a miracle as something wonderful that shows
>how great god is, and you say there are none of these in the old testament.
>Orwell, dear, what do you call the creation of the earth, the creation of
man?
>And how Joseph got out of his predicament when he began to interpret dreams
>with the help of god? Sure,all of it can be explained with logic. God
>doesn't use "magic" deary. We use the word magic in everyday life to mean
>an event that we know in our minds cannot happen, but look, it did. A thing
>loses its magic when it is explained. All of the things in the new testament
are also very well explained by logic, as many people will tell you while
trying to convince you that Jesus was not the son of God.
|
seraph
|
|
response 15 of 19:
|
Jan 18 20:06 UTC 1996 |
I definately believe in god, but only really in the context of a word that
answers unanswerable questions. I think the bible is incredible interesting,
but I've never even considered taking it litarally, I am perfectly happy to
belive in all those stories as alagory meant to teach us something important.
Whether the miracles that are written about happened or not I don't feel any
need to rationalize them, because if you can take them for what they are and
for what they accomplished both at the time of their supposed happenings and
their effect on history it doesn't really matter what the scientific
rationalizations are. If you do believe in the bible litterally then it
shouldn't be necessary to put human logic to it, because if you believe in
an all powerful God then human logic isn't enough to understand how the
miracles worked. If you believe in a God that actually created the heavens
and the earth that we live on, specifically in seven days with a completely
new piece on each day then is there any point at all in believing that these
things couldn't happen?
|
carson
|
|
response 16 of 19:
|
Jan 27 11:49 UTC 1996 |
I usually read the Bible with a grain of salt, keeping in mind that
although it may be God's word, it is His word through man. Several
men, for that matter.
have there been any translations of the Bible by a female author yet?
|
seraph
|
|
response 17 of 19:
|
Jan 29 19:32 UTC 1996 |
I think I heard about a feminist bible that is fairly new, but there are so
many translations around that it would be strange if there wasn't.
|
rlawson
|
|
response 18 of 19:
|
Feb 1 23:51 UTC 1996 |
I heard about it recently as well. I'd like to get my hands on a translation
like that just to keep well informed. I think that would call for really
interesting reading. :)
|
orinoco
|
|
response 19 of 19:
|
Mar 6 03:05 UTC 1996 |
I've heard of several new editions of teh bible using only non-gender-specific
terms, as well as a modernization of teh language. Which is really sad, when
you think about it--the bible is some of the best poetry in all of western
literature, and to alter it like that, while it may be "politically correct",
is certainly not a good idea.
"Our parent, who is in heaven, your name is sacred...."
It just doesn't work...
|