response 1 of 33:

Dec 5 14:13 UTC 2002

The previous discussion from #110:

#296 of 299 by Happy as a little girl (beeswing) on Thu Dec 5 02:55:10 
2002: 
I'm a little aggravated concerning my nephew and his parents (my 
brother and his wife). And I am not sure if I'm justified. Will try to 
condense the scenario:

Earlier tonight, we were all having dinner at my parents' house. My 
parents had their christmas tree up, and they'd gotten an electric 
train to go around the bottom of the tree. My nephew (he's 2 1/2) loves 
trains, so he was fascinated by it, watching it go round and round. 
Then it was time to eat, so we told Ryan that he had to come to the 
kitchen. Of course, he didn't want to and after saying "No" a few 
times, my brother scooped him up and took him into the kitchen. By now, 
Ryan is crying. They strapped him in his high chair and despite 
everyone explaining to him that he could play with the train as soon as 
dinner was over, he cried harder and harder and screamed twice. My mom 
gave him some toys on his tray, but instead of playing with them, was 
banging them on the tray. My brother slapped his hand and told him to 
stop or he'd "take him in the other room". Ryan got a little quieter 
but was still very upset. Like he's going to eat at this point anyway?

My brother decides to take him out of the chair and into the bathroom 
to spank him. My parents and I are not comfortable with this, and my 
mom explains that Ryan is not going to understand why he is being 
spanked, so it's not going to do any good, and the kid is tired to 
begin with and therefore won't behave 100%. I agree with my mom. But my 
sister-in-law insists Ryan will know why he's being spanked and shrugs 
it off, saying that Ryan needs to fear his parents so he won't do wrong 
later on. We hear two popping sounds and Ryan is of course crying 
louder and harder than he ever was before. Then my brother has to strap 
him in the high chair again, which starts the tantrum all over. The 
poor guy just looked so frustrated and upset. It killed me.

Now, I think if they'd just left the kid in the high chair, he'd 
eventually calm down and know he'd have to be in the high chair for a 
little while. Spanking him didn't stop anything. And it's plain wrong 
to hit a kid for any reason, IMHO. I can't help but think Ryan felt so 
threatened, because here's a person 10 times his size whom he has no 
choice but to rely on... who is now hitting him. And he's powerless. I 
tried, as calmly as possible, to explain to my sister-in-law that 
spanking him would only make it worse. She just said it was necessary. 
Mom asked if they'd ever tried time outs. They both said no and kept 
eating their soup, saying he "needed discipline". 

I am not a parent. I'm not sure I have the patience it takes to be one. 
And I've seen how kids can push their parents to the limit. And I know 
how tempting it is to just spank the kid and get it over with. 

And at the same time, I'm so mad that parents think hitting a child 
(and the "I don't hit hard" argument means nothing to me) is perfectly 
fine. It just seems to be a tool to intimidate and frighten, or 
something done out of anger. I mean, just 150 years ago, society 
thought it was OK to have slaves. 100 years ago, society thought it was 
OK to not allow women to vote. Yet all this time, it's been OK to hit 
children who can't defend themselves.

(FWIW, Native Americans were horrified to witness Puritans spanking 
their kids.) 

response 3 of 33:

Dec 5 14:15 UTC 2002

299 of 299 by John Ellis Perry Jr. (jep) on Thu Dec 5 09:05:00 2002: 
I could probably say a lot about physical discipline, but don't wish to 
disrupt Valerie's item.  I'll create another item in the parenting 
conference for the topic.  I'm sure there are some items already, but 
it's a timeless discussion.

response 5 of 33:

Dec 5 14:47 UTC 2002

Before I was a parent myself, I was all for spanking.  When I got 
married, though, my stepson wasn't being raised that way, and when my 
son was born, it didn't make sense to raise him differently than his 
brother.  I have spanked John III a few times, but not for quite a 
while now, and it was never used very commonly.

John responds very well to timeouts (though he doesn't even get those 
very often, not from me), sharp words, or just plain explanations.  He 
really wants to please.  He hates to think he's done anything wrong.  
He's so well behaved, I've wondered if that itself is a problem.

He's not a risk taker, as his teacher says.  In his class, he's one of 
just a couple of kids who have never had to be disciplined.  
(They "pull cards" for discipline, and have the date and incident 
recorded on their cards.  Some of the kids have cards covered with 
incident reports, but John's card is clean.)

Anyway, I'm not horrified by the idea of spanking, but just don't need 
to use it.

response 7 of 33:

Dec 5 15:47 UTC 2002

But wouldn't that teach the kid that by hurting someone, you can get 
what you want?

Sigh. I feel like I almost don't have a right to comment since I'm not 
a parent. I can't say I know how a parent feels.

But I just can't help but think that it's stemmed in fear and 
humiliation. Most spankings are not necessarily painful, so it's the 
emotions associated with it that are meant as a deterrent. Fear, 
because here's someone bigger than you who has now shown you they have 
the will and capability to hurt you; humiliation because you can't 
defend yourself and you're the victim; confusion because you are 
dependent on someone who also hits you.

I didn't have to be spanked to know that I'd get in big trouble for 
doing wrong. My parents being upset with me was bad enough.

And in the case of my brother/sis in law, they hadn't even considered 
other alternatives. I think the church they go to tends to encourage 
hard discipline for kids.

response 9 of 33:

Dec 5 17:16 UTC 2002

Exactly, Brooke. That's what I mean -- it's not to cause the child fear and
humiliation -- it's to "get the attention". Some children simply don't "get"
timeouts. Or having things taken away or parental upset as deterrents. For
you, beeswing, having your parents upset was "bad enough". For some kids, it's
not. And I really don't feel that a swat makes you feel helpless or humilated
or any of the things you say they do -- I know how I felt when I was punished,
and when my Dad had his rage attacks -- THAT's helpless! But when I got
swatted, no. I've asked my children how they felt when they were spanked (now
that they're older and we can discuss this) -- they don't recall any of the
bad feelings you mention. Maybe they've repressed it, and maybe I have too,
but I don't have the conviction that a spanking is always a bad thing and
always leads to kids thinking that hitting is okay. 

This doesn't mean that I think spanking is okay all the time with all kids.
There are some kids who are perfectly socialized to find timeouts and other
consequences exactly what they respond to. There are some kids who aren't.
That's all I'm saying. A two year old, or so (still in high chair), isn't
misbehaving because he wants to go against the rules. He's still finding out
what rules are, and testing. In that case, no. I wouldn't spank unless it was
a case of the whole running into the street -- because I'd WANT my kid to stay
safe, even if it was because they din't want to be whacked again. Time enough
to tell them why when they can understand why's. Right then, I want a safe
and alive kid, and if it takes a swat to get it into his head, then I'll do
that. 

response 11 of 33:

Dec 5 17:26 UTC 2002

The real question here though isnt so much what each of us would do if 
we were parents, the question I see, is should we interfere and when. 
No one wants to see a child be abused, especially physically abused. 
While I think it is possible to spank a child and have it not be child 
abuse, I think that most spankings are getting pretty close to the line 
especially when the parent is angry. They might be hitting harder than 
they think they are hitting, for example. In general, I think that 
parents should be allowed to parent however they see fit. However, I 
also believe that it is appropriate to intervene when abuse is present. 
The question is, "how do you know?"

response 13 of 33:

Dec 29 00:25 UTC 2002

Hitting kids isn't likely to make them respect you, anyway.

response 15 of 33:

Dec 29 22:03 UTC 2002

You know. I really respect my Dad and he never hit me. He is very 
consistant though. Did you respect your Dad *because* he hit you or for 
some other trait he possessed?

response 17 of 33:

Jan 17 20:13 UTC 2003

I have to agree with Twila, it depends on the child.  I was firmly against
spanking when I became a parent.  My father went overboard and bordered on
abusive, and I was determined never to do that.

With my younger son, Corey, who has a temperament like mine, spanj=king was
never an issue.  He cared what I thought and wanted to do the right thing.
If he misbehaved, there was always a reason, and when we got to the bottom
of it, it was unlikely to recur.  Thn there was my elder child, TJ.  TJ was
a wild child.  I never did get the hang of teaching him discipline -- self
disipline or otherwise.  His father was also abusive,m so I almost never
resoirted to spanking...it wouldn't have served to get his attention anyway,
since it was onersued 9and nt even consistently) in his fathers' home.  But
in retrospect, I wonder if that particular child might have been one for whom
spanking, used sparingly, might have made a positive difference.

Thanksfully, both got to adulthood ... 

response 19 of 33:

Jan 19 22:02 UTC 2003

I don't know. I am probably all tainted by my puritanical roots or something,
but I think I can differentiate between "fear" and "respect". I can also
differentiate between the kind of instinctive, unreasoning fear I have when
large men get angry/annoyed in my presence (a programmed in fear from having
my father hit me, etc.) and a justified fear. I do know that physical
discipline of a child can go too far, very easily -- I've been on the
recieving end of that. But a little bit, in the form of a spanking (as I've
defined above), does not have to be evil, or soul-corroding, or anything but
a disciplinary tool. I don't advocate one in every instance of misdoing. I
don't even advocate one if it seems that your particular child can learn
without it. But for some children, in some circumstances, a spanking is a very
good thing and teaches the lesson that needs to be taught in a way that works.

response 21 of 33:

Jun 21 16:00 UTC 2003

But there is a difference between the fear that a stranger inspires and
the fear a bullying parent can inspire. It goes right to the child's basic
needs. A child doesn't have to fear that the stranger will cut off love,
support, brood angrily for weeks, or lash out violently with total
impunity.