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Grex > Micros > #199: FreeBSD, Linux, or other PC Unixes? |  |
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jshafer
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FreeBSD, Linux, or other PC Unixes?
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Jan 21 15:58 UTC 1999 |
I'm trying to sort out all of the various Unixes
available for the PC. I was hoping for some help
sorting out the various incarnations of Linux, as
well as FreeBSD and perhaps the other PC-based
BSD's.
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jshafer
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response 1 of 257:
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Jan 21 16:01 UTC 1999 |
I recently put together a Pentium II, and am contemplating
installing some sort of Unix. I'm not quite sure what I want
to accomplish here, other than giving myself an environment
in which to learn more about Unix.
I have a 3Gig hard drive, with just over 2 Gig free. How big
a partition am I going to want for the Unix install?
Thanks a bunch!
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jshafer
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response 2 of 257:
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Jan 21 16:04 UTC 1999 |
(jellyware item 241 linked to micros item 199)
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jshafer
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response 3 of 257:
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Jan 22 19:23 UTC 1999 |
I have found the following web sites:
http://www.freebsd.org seems to be the most useful site I've found, which
means at the moment I'm leaning towards FreeBSD...
http://www.redhat.com sounds good, if I feel like spending $$$ for a CD...
Although that kind of defeats the purpose of finding a cheap Unix installation
to play around with...
http://www.slackware.org doesn't impress me that much, but that might be
because of my cluelessness and not any inherant problem with their site.
Anyone know of any other sites that a newbie such as myself could turn to for
more information?
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blight
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response 4 of 257:
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Jan 22 23:10 UTC 1999 |
The Unix Guru Universe page (http://www.ugu.com/) has links to web pages
for the various types of Unices out there. That site also has a link to where
you can get a Unix tutorial. Here are some others you might want to look into:
Cheapbytes Home Page (http://www.cheapbytes.com/). Here you can buy many
of the popular Linux distribtuions like Debian, Red Hat, Slackware, Turbo
Linux, etc. on CD for only $2. You can also buy *BSD CDs for about $5.
The Linux home page (http://www.linux.org/). Has information about Linux
on it.
Debian Linux home page (http://www.debian.org/).
Turbo Linux home page (http://www.turbolinux.com/).
Stampded Linux (http://www.stampede.org/). This is a new Linux
distribution that I know nothing about.
Caldera Linux (http://www.caldera.com/)
NetBSD page (http://www.netbsd.org/)
OpenBSD page (http://www.openbsd.org/)
(In case you're wondering OpenBSD and NetBSD are both derived from BSD code.
OpenBSD was formed by a member of the NetBSD project and they have now become
separate entities. Other than that I can't tell you much about them.)
The only Linux distribtuion I'm familiar with is Red Hat. I got my copy of
Red Hat 5.0 wth a book on Linux. It's easy to set up. As far as other
Linuxes go I'm not familiar with them so you'll have to try them on your own.
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jshafer
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response 5 of 257:
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Jan 23 23:25 UTC 1999 |
Great, that should get me started!
I am interested in comments from anyone using any of these products - What are
you using now? Why did you choose that? And so on.
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kentn
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response 6 of 257:
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Jan 24 00:57 UTC 1999 |
I use FreeBSD at home. Chosen mainly because of its emphasis on x86
machines, its BSD heritage, and its relatively active Usenet group.
NetBSD and OpenBSD should both be comparable for learning Unix and all
three seem to have a good lot of application software available and use
each other's "good" system code changes. I don't know if you can tell
them apart so much any more except maybe in installation procedures and
the philosophy of their development groups--NetBSD strives for operation
on multiple platforms and relatively conservative code development,
OpenBSD more on system security but also multiple platforms, and FreeBSD
on more rapid development and a concentration on Intel X86 hardware
although there are a couple ports to other systems going on there now.
Even those generalizations, I'm sure, are not entirely correct. I think
you'd do well with any of NetBSD, OpenBSD, or FreeBSD for learning
purposes. Or Linux, for that matter.
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rtg
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response 7 of 257:
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Jan 24 05:12 UTC 1999 |
I've used Linux distributions from Yggdrasil, Slackware, RedHat,
Caldera, and currently S.u.S.E. I've had good experiences with all, and
each one is easier to set up and configure than the last.
If you're local to ANn Arbor, there's lots of local support. The
Washtenaw Linux Users Group meets monthly, and I maintain a majordomo
mailing list with ~150 subscribers currently. It's a great place to ask
questions and get help. There's also a metro Detroit LUG which meets in
Farmington Hills, and I just heard of a new one in Toledo. Quite often
at meetings, we'll have a stack of CD-ROM's to give away, with basic
distributions on them. If we can cross paths, I'll happily pass you a
recent one.
Check out http://www.lugwash.org for more info.
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jshafer
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response 8 of 257:
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Jan 25 18:51 UTC 1999 |
OK, dumb question: What is S.u.S.E.? I've seen the acronym before,
but have yet to figure out what it is...
I did order a few cds from CheapBytes, so soon I should have FreeBSD
2.2.8 and recent versions of RedHat and Slackware...
I also managed to repartition my hard drive to make room for one of the
above. I'm sure when the disks arive I'll have some installation
questions...
Thanks a bunch for all the info.
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atticus
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response 9 of 257:
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Jan 26 05:20 UTC 1999 |
S.u.S.E is a Linux distribution, very popular in Germany.
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pfv
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response 10 of 257:
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Jan 26 17:39 UTC 1999 |
..as S.u.S.E is packaged/built-up outta' Deutschland..
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mithun
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response 11 of 257:
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Jan 26 22:22 UTC 1999 |
I have been using RedHat Linux for the past 2 years used everything from 4.0 to
5.1 If you have any questions regarding installing RedHat do let me know. I
think RedHat will be the easiest to install if you don't know much about your
PC or unix as such.
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mithun
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response 12 of 257:
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Jan 26 22:22 UTC 1999 |
How many partitions did you make for Linux ???
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mithun
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response 13 of 257:
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Jan 26 22:25 UTC 1999 |
Just for information purpose you can get Solaris 7 for approx $16 from Sun.
They are giving out free copies of Solaris for personal use. Although I would
recommend you stay away from Solaris installation for the time being.
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rtg
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response 14 of 257:
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Jan 27 08:09 UTC 1999 |
re resp:12
For a first-time Linux installation, I recommend the following:
hda1: /dos-win for legacy programs - as small as you can get away with.
hda2: /boot about 5MB for kernel images
hda3: swap 2x your installed system RAM
hda4: / root partition - the rest of your drive.
The reason for the small /boot partition is to work around a limitation
in most BIOS, that all files used by the initial boot loader be located
below cyl 1024. Since modern drives have many more cyl than that, it's
necessary to create a small partition which is entirely contained below
that line for your kernel images.
On one of my systems, I also separate out a partition for /home, so
that my personal files aren't touched when I do a clean install of a new
distribution.
If you are blessed with a huge HD, you might want to define two
partitions the size of your root partition. Hold the second one spare,
so that you can install your next distribution there, and still be able
to boot into your old system, or mount your old root and refer to
configs and scripts you forgot you customized until you booted the new
system and discovered an old problem cropping up again...
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gull
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response 15 of 257:
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Jan 27 16:54 UTC 1999 |
I've played with FreeBSD, NetBSD, OpenBSD, Slackware Linux, RedHat Linux,
Turbolinux, and Debian Linux. As far as the *BSD operating systems go,
FreeBSD is by far the easiest to install. NetBSD and OpenBSD are fairly
bare-bones and assume a fair amount of familiarity with UNIX. Of the two I
like OpenBSD better, as it has a smarter install program. I should add the
disclaimer that I'm only familiar with the SPARCstation ports of OpenBSD and
NetBSD, though, so it's possible the Intel ones are less minimalist. You'll
find the most commercial software available for FreeBSD, but it still lags
far behind Linux in this department. It will run BSDi binaries, however.
Also, programs written for other BSD UNIXes aren't usually too hard to coax
into compiling on it; the same can't be said for Linux, which has some
screwy header files.
As far as Linux, I'm pretty impressed with TurboLinux. It borrows heavily
from RedHat, but the installer seemed smarter and less buggy than RedHat's
latest one. It can also handle RedHat RPM files, which are a popular way to
distribute Linux software. Slackware is a decent distribution, and what I
started out on, but it's getting long in the tooth. The package system is
simplistic, and not much software is distributed in Slackware package form
anymore. You won't go far wrong with Slackware, but you won't get some of
the ease-of-use features of TurboLinux. Debian, finally, is a highly
configurable release, but assumes you really know what you're doing. Its
main advantage, IMHO, is it gives you an extraordinary amount of control over
what it installs, but only if you can figure out its obscure package
installer.
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mdw
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response 16 of 257:
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Jan 28 03:29 UTC 1999 |
The original 386bsd was basically a release of 4.4bsd done by William
Jolitz, as the berkeley/at&t lawsuite was being settled. Bsdi started
up at just about this time as well, using the same 4.4bsd code base, but
they quickly diverged with their own set of drivers. 386bsd had a fair
number of bugs, and many people quickly released patches for it. Jolitz
didn't do much more work, so after a while, the netbsd people gave up on
patching 386bsd, and made their own release. The netbsd people went on
to support a number of other platforms besides the 386 family, but
weren't always real good about squashing minor reliability bugs on the
386, so another group, freebsd, started up, with the explicit mission to
concentrate on the 386 family and on reliability, instead of worrying
about experimental features and portability. Openbsd started up last;
their goal was to combine some of the best features of freebsd and
netbsd (which had not diverged *that* much), and to put an emphasis on
security features to make it more vandal proof.
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pfv
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response 17 of 257:
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Jan 28 20:11 UTC 1999 |
I dunno, TurboLinux - sounds like maybe I should swipe some packages - like
the installer - for RH ;-)
The following is from my dual 520M HDD system:
[root@localhost /tmp]# df
Filesystem 1024-blocks Used Available Capacity Mounted on
/dev/hda7 243969 185662 45709 80% /
/dev/hda5 10213 1552 8134 16% /boot
/dev/hda1 122688 23590 99098 19% /dos
/dev/hdb1 499620 471166 2651 99% /usr
Notice, I don't have diddly for games, and my source is mostly just Kernel,
Although I have a couple of directories I'm playing in.. My advice - armature
that I am to this linux-gig is this:IF yer HDD is large enough, by all means
leave a dos partition, and add /boot - "swap" is a given, and - yeah: 2x yer
RAM is just about right.. (being paranoid, I made it substantially larger &
it's a waste). Then, let the installer pile in ALL the garbage you need/want.
This is the FIRST install....
Now, guesstimate the volume of space the assorted /... directories (or their
kids) are chewing up - and the 2nd time you install, you can specify some
ball-park figures for separate "mount-points".. Why? Cuz I can guarentee yer
going to wish to hell you had more room in the <whatevertheheck> directory.
Not a day goes by I don't consider a full reinstall.. But, yee-gods.. the
downloading I'd have to do ;-/
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rtg
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response 18 of 257:
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Jan 29 07:45 UTC 1999 |
IMHO, chopping up a drive into multiple partitions, and trying to figure
out how to size each one, is a waste of time, and asking for problems.
the more partitions you have, the more potential out-of-space errors you
can get. Separate partition for swap is a must, separate partition for
/boot is a must if your drive is > 1024 cyl, and the first time you do a
complete re-install of the latest distribution, I think you'll agree that
/home is good to have in a separate partition. Other than that, let it
all fall into one root partition.
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jshafer
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response 19 of 257:
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Jan 29 22:59 UTC 1999 |
Well, I now have RedHat 5.2, Slackware 3.6, Debian 2.0 and
FreeBSD 2.2.8, courtesy of http://www.cheapbytes.com/ (thanks, blight!) and
am now contemplating the next step...
Toking, and anyone else down here in southwestern Michigan,
get ahold of me if you need to borrow one of these CDs.
Question: I need a /boot partition somewhere below cyl 1024?
How do I do that without messing up my data? I currently have
a 3.1 G hard drive, and have managed to partitition off the last
gig. The primary partition is FAT32, for Win95b, and I don't plan
on dumping Windows anytime soon. And I'd prefer not to have
to spend $$$ on Partition Magic or something similar.
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rtg
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response 20 of 257:
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Jan 30 05:18 UTC 1999 |
Look on the RedHat CD, in the /dosutils directory. You may find something
called fips, which will shrink your win95 partition just like partition
magic. READ THE DOCS! The version shipped with RH5.1 didn't support
FAT32, and I had to search the web for the update. Make sure the one they
shipped with 5.2 includes FAT32 support. You only need 5mb below the
1024cyl line. If you insist on wasting 2/3 of your drive on Win95, then
plan on booting Linux from a floppy.
For a first-time Linux user, I'd recommend RedHat. The Slackware and
Debian releases aren't quite as plug-n-play as redhat is, so I believe
you'll have an easier time installing and configuring using the redhat
tools. My personal favorite right now is SuSE, if for no other reason
than they finally fixed the backspace/delete issue!
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jshafer
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response 21 of 257:
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Jan 30 08:59 UTC 1999 |
Do you suppose (after I got everything else working)(Is that possible?)
I could port the backspace/delete fix from SuSE to RedHat?
Re: _wasting_ 2/3 of my drive, as far as I know, they don't make Forte
Agent for Linux. And unfortunately, they probably never will, as they
seem to have stopped development. Plus I've got PageMill that I need
for work, Microsoft Visual C++ (that one of these days I'm going to get
around to learning how to use...) and my fractal programs. But I'm
sure I can fit a 5 meg partition in the first chunk of the hard drive
without too much trouble, and if a gig isn't enough for Linux I can
always save up for that other hard drive I've been wanting...
By the way, thanks for all the help. It's much appreciated.
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pfv
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response 22 of 257:
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Jan 30 21:13 UTC 1999 |
What backspace/delete "fix"? I was under the impression it was a termcap
issue, and RedHat doesn't muck with mine.. Telnetting to mnut can, though..
(Just like the ^J == [enter] issue in party there).
SuSE looks interesting, but I understand the docs are still in German, and...
Cheapbytes didn't have it cheap at ALL..
I was thinking of getting the RH 5.2 stuff, archive diskset, Debian and
Turbo-Linux from there.. SuSE if they had it.. FreeBSD is said to be short
some "options" (whatever the hell that means).
Frankly, if I get a new HDD, I'll need to reinstall ANYWAY, so.. I'm guessing
a selection might be useful.
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jshafer
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response 23 of 257:
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Jan 30 21:39 UTC 1999 |
I just found this rather lengthy arcticle on the various
BSD-descendants out there. I'm still only a third of the
way through it, but thought y'all might find it interesting...
http://www.sunworld.com/swol-01-1999/swol-01-bsd.html?0126a
By the way, I must have misunderstood about the termcap
thing, so nevermind.
I did just install "ZipSlack" here at work, but won't get a
chance to try booting it until later tonight. It only takes up
about 80 Meg, and is supposed to work on a FAT partition.
I'll let y'all know how it works...
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rtg
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response 24 of 257:
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Jan 31 07:24 UTC 1999 |
There's a Keyboard-and-Console HOWTO out there, that tells you all the
places that need to be patched to give backspace and delete the
functions we are accustomed to in the DOS/Win world. It's not just
termcap, it seems to be everywhere. Just the other day, I discovered
another one: my roommates, who login to my machine for their e-mail
using procomm on their DOS machine, discovered that 'delete' acted like
backspace. So now, I've got to find out how to get the Procomm vt100
emulation to send a different code for that key, and I've got to figure
out just what that code should be... What puzzles me is why it's taken
this long for a distributor to include those patches. Did Linus grow up
without a delete key, so he doesn't see this as important enough to
include in the standard kernel source?
I just received a second CDrom in the mail today, containing SuSE 5.3.
It's not the 5-disk set I got in the box, probably more like the basic
cheapBytes version. BTW, Linux Central in Royal Oak also stamps out
single-CD versions of the major distributions. They frequently show up
at the Washtenaw Linux Users Group with a stack of them to give away.
I've got their version of RH 5.0, RH5.1, and SuSE 5.2. It's their RH5.1
that I'm running on my laptop right now. I'm willing to pass on any of
these to anyone who wants to try Linux or upgrade from an earlier
release.
Re: the booting issue. There's also a program called 'loadlin' which
allows you to store your kernel image on your DOS partition, and boot
linux from there. I don't hear much about it lately, and it would be
slow, since you'd have to wait for DOS to boot, then run loadlin to
start the linux boot process, but it is there. I used it to boot Linux
from dos when first installing RH5.0 on the laptop.
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