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| Author |
Message |
orinoco
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Astonishment and Qustion
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Nov 15 23:05 UTC 1997 |
Wow...an actual laundry conference. Amazing.
Can anyone reccomend me a way to make permanent marker stop being so
permanent? I got some on a shirt, and it won't go away...
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| 36 responses total. |
valerie
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response 1 of 36:
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Nov 16 02:34 UTC 1997 |
This response has been erased.
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omni
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response 2 of 36:
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Nov 16 05:51 UTC 1997 |
Glad you like the conf, dan. It really is remmers idea, but I copied it from
m-net.
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orinoco
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response 3 of 36:
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Nov 19 03:48 UTC 1997 |
It's a white t-shirt, with black permanent marker. Unpleasant, isn't it...
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rcurl
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response 4 of 36:
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Nov 19 07:08 UTC 1997 |
Well, you could draw a nice design on it with black permanent marker,
taking advantage of what is already there. Get an artists friend to
exercise some creativity.
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valerie
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response 5 of 36:
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Nov 19 17:38 UTC 1997 |
This response has been erased.
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omni
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response 6 of 36:
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Nov 20 07:16 UTC 1997 |
I don't think anything can be done, but there might be a solution. Have you
talked to the dry cleaners? Maybe a little perq can get it out.
(Perc or perq is the chemical used in the dry cleaning process. It is a
carcinogen, and very toxic. You have to be licensed to handle it, that is,
removing spent chemical from the machine's system and installing new).
That info was courtesy of evil1 who is a dry cleaner par excellance.
You might want to call Armen's main plant and speak with Joyce. If she can't
help you, no one can.
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rcurl
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response 7 of 36:
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Nov 20 19:29 UTC 1997 |
"perc" is perchloroethylene, but the contraction comes from the trade
name Perclene. It is not as toxic as carbon tetrachloride, but is now
controlled. (I hate to think of how much carbton"tet" and "perc" I
have dealt with and breathed in my career.....I conducted a year long
research project with a mixture of carbon tet" and octane, with no
special ventilation. Those were the old - and more dangerous - days...)
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omni
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response 8 of 36:
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Nov 20 20:56 UTC 1997 |
So what exatly is Octane. I have always defined it as a factor or number
that gasoline, when burnt in an engine ceases to knock.
I'm thinking about starting a chemistry conf. What say, Rane?
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i
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response 9 of 36:
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Nov 21 01:26 UTC 1997 |
Octane is C H (though i think they actually use 2,2,4 tri-methyl pentane
8 18
or some such these days). The idea is that you compare the combustion-
related properties of a batch of gasoline (which is a messy mixture of
all sorts of hydrocarbons even before they add the additives (detergents,
etc.)) to octane. Depending on the well the oil came from, the refinery
it went to, the way it was treated in extracting the gasoline, etc. you
might get all sorts of variation from one tank of gas to another. The
octane number reference (amoung others) is used by refineries to mix,
treat, etc. their gasoline so as to deliver a consistent product.
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omni
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response 10 of 36:
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Nov 21 06:20 UTC 1997 |
I related your problem to evil1, and she suggest alcohol. Put an absorbent
piece of cloth behind the stain and dab it with alcohol. It should work, if
not, then you have a rag. She also said that perc won't do a thing for it,
and if you have washed it since you got the stain on it, it's probably set
for life.
She also said that 100% alcohol will work the best, so go get a bottle of
Everclear.
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rcurl
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response 11 of 36:
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Nov 21 08:07 UTC 1997 |
Which alcohol?
Octane is what i said it is, and "octane number" compares the "knocking"
properties of a fuel against a standard mixture (iso-octane and heptane
with or without anti-knocking agent) in a standard engine under standard
operating conditions. There are actually about six different "standard"
procedures (which give different results!). "Octane number", incidentally,
is *only* concerned with knocking, has has nothing to do with efficiency,
miles-per-gallon obtained, cleanliness, etc. Knocking is premature
detonation of the fuel-air mixture, and it drastically reduces engine
power.
A chemistry cf? I'd probably participate, but that's my profession, and
you know what they say about "all work and no play....".
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valerie
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response 12 of 36:
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Nov 21 15:02 UTC 1997 |
This response has been erased.
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rcurl
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response 13 of 36:
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Nov 21 16:56 UTC 1997 |
Is that really you, Valerie? Usually electrical engineers shun chemistry
like the plague. :).
All of the above is correct - except that "Everclear" is a trade name,
and does not identify what alcohol is being suggested. The alcohol names
are based upon the names of the hydrocarbons from which they are derived
by the substitution of an -OH group for a -H. Thus
methane --> methanol
ethane --> methanol
propane --> propanol
etc
So, which alcohol was being suggested for this cleaning application?
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omni
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response 14 of 36:
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Nov 21 19:09 UTC 1997 |
Marlene was saying that Isopropyl would probably work best, although
I know you cannot drink it. Everclear is 200 proof alcohol, I would guess
methyl alcohol is the kind we can drink.
Valerie, that chemistry explanation was very interesting, and enlightening.
I'll still call Joyce to see what she has to say about the stain.
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lee
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response 15 of 36:
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Nov 22 00:51 UTC 1997 |
Wow. I've forgotten so much since high school.
<lee goes to track down a chemistry text... any chemistry text>
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valerie
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response 16 of 36:
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Nov 22 03:58 UTC 1997 |
This response has been erased.
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omni
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response 17 of 36:
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Nov 22 06:59 UTC 1997 |
Valerie, you never cease to amaze me at what you know.
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i
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response 18 of 36:
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Nov 22 16:11 UTC 1997 |
ethane ----> ethanol in #13 for those who didn't catch it right away.
Methanol is "wood alcohol", and poisonous 'fer sure. Ethanol is "grain
alcohol" like you find in beer. (My impression is that Everclear is
only about 190 proof. I know it's excellent for some cleaning applications,
there are museums that go though it by the case. Dunno whether they
denature it on receipt to prevent evaporation in the presence of staff...)
Whoops! New word - denature. Broadly, it means to render unfit for human
consumption. Here, it means to spike (very popular beverage) ethanol with
(XXX POISON) methanol to (hopefully) prevent human consumption.
Isopropanol aka isopropyl alcohol is the stuff you'll find lots of 70%
strength (diluted with water) being sold as Rubbing Alcohol. Decent
drug stores will have 90% & higher strengths. (Beware - the more potent
stuff is MUCH more of a fire hazard than the 70%.)
To continue in valerie's tradition for isopropyl alcohol:
H H H
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H--C---C---C--H
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H O H
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H
Propanol aka propyl alcohol (wo/the "iso") would differ in the placement
of the oxygen atom (the "O"). In propanol, the O would be between one
of the end carbon atoms and a hydrogen atom.
If valerie can produce a good ASCII structural formula (limit 80 columns)
of a buckyball (C ), i'll buy her (or her designate) a 1-year membership.
:) 60
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valerie
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response 19 of 36:
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Nov 22 22:37 UTC 1997 |
This response has been erased.
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i
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response 20 of 36:
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Nov 23 06:07 UTC 1997 |
{cackle, chortle, chuckle. i should have put horns & pitchfork on that
smiley face. Obviously, valerie does not suspect that C is a spherical
molecule.} 60
Yep, i only addressed one definition of the word denature. I'm familiar
with the "shove a complex molecule out of its normal folding pattern" use,
but i wouldn't call it denaturing when there's a chemical change in the
molecule (not just folding, H bonds, & the like).
Buckyballs (aka Buckminsterfullerine) are so named due to their geodesic
dome structure. They're a hot area of current research in chemistry,
but rcurl probably knows half a dozen ways you can make 'em at home
('long as you don't expect a very pure product).
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rcurl
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response 21 of 36:
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Nov 24 06:17 UTC 1997 |
Sure. Buckyballs occur in ordinary soot. People had been "playing" with
them for millenia - even dissolving them in solvents (but thinking
they just had "junk").
Sorry about that typo in #13. There are, incidentally, hundreds of
formulas for denaturing ethanol. Ethanol has many industrial and product
uses, but what is used for denaturing it should not be deleterious in
those applications. For example, the denaturing agent for ethanol used
in cosmetics should not contain methanol (too toxic), so perhaps ethyl
acetate will be used.
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valerie
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response 22 of 36:
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Nov 24 18:44 UTC 1997 |
This response has been erased.
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i
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response 23 of 36:
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Nov 25 02:30 UTC 1997 |
Hint: look over a soccer ball. Seams are carbon-carbon bonds, points
where 3 seams meet are carbon atoms. Have fun, but don't expect the
problem to be solvable.
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rcurl
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response 24 of 36:
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Nov 25 07:16 UTC 1997 |
The story goes that the discovers of the structure of C60 asked their
math department what that shape is called - and were told to look at
a soccer ball. (I recently saw the Nova program on Buckyballs, which
described the history of their discovery, as told by the discoverers.
The signatures of C60 was first observed in nubular (astronomical)
clouds. They are the "third form of carbon" - diamond, graphite, and
fullerenes.)
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