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coyote
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The Gaelic Discussion Item
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Sep 18 15:21 UTC 1996 |
Wow! I just found out about the conference. If only I had know sooner. :)
Well, anyway, I'm quite interested in Gaelic languages; I've been slowly
aquiring the taste over the past year or two. Unfortunately, I don't know
any Gaelic of any sort, so I can't participate in the Irish Item.
This item is for the discussion of any of the Gaelic languages, from Manx,
to Welsh, to Cornish, where we can talk about, oh, anything from origen, to
pronunciation! Have fun!
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| 69 responses total. |
kami
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response 1 of 69:
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Sep 18 23:18 UTC 1996 |
I think we started an Irish item a while back, although it didn't go very
far. Why not kill that one and fold it in here. Thanks for starting it.
So- what's your interest in Celtic languages? Are you familiar with any
of the literature, poetry, culture, etc.?
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coyote
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response 2 of 69:
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Sep 19 17:29 UTC 1996 |
Well, my interest in Celtic language stems from my great interest in Celtic
mythology. I read lots of fantasy, and the authors I enjoy often incorperate
aspects of Celtic mythology into their writing. When I find something like
this, I often get curious, and look it up in the big Celtic mythology
dictionary (I can get the title if you're interested), and learn more about
it. The more I read about it, the more I learn, and get interested. I love
the way the language sounds, and looks when written out, and so learning
pronunciation is something I'm in the process of doing. Unfortunately, I
don't know a tad of any Celtic language, and I don't know where to start.
I'm not really familiar with any literature or peotry, but the myths
and stories, especially involving the Fae or Sidhe, are what I'm the most
familiar with. I'm not really sure about whether I'd like the literature and
poetry or not because it again relates back to the fact that I don't know any
Gaelic. <sigh>. One of these days...
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kami
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response 3 of 69:
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Sep 19 20:43 UTC 1996 |
Which mythology dictionary are you using?
Are you getting your pronounciation from guides in books or where? That's
one aspect of language which is hard to teach over the computer. Of course,
even when you use language tapes or books, you've got the problem of whether
it's Scots or Irish Gaelic, and within each strain, what dialect. Complicated.
Do you *want* to learn a Celtic language, or is it easier to just play with
names? They are difficult, but neat.
The literature I was refering to was the mythology, I don't know much
modern stuff. Poetry, too, shows up in translations of the myths. The thing
about the Sidhe folk is that they *might* be a Christian invention- a
diminution of the older people and their gods into something small, tricksy
and insignificant instead of large and powerful. Dunno, some of the wee
folk might be another entity than the Tuatha de Dannan and Formorians,
entirely.
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coyote
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response 4 of 69:
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Sep 20 18:37 UTC 1996 |
Let's see... the name of the book is An Encyclopedia of Fairies by Katharine
Briggs. I think we might have a few more, but this is the one I mainly use.
I do get my pronunciation from books, but a nice thing of this encyclopedia,
is it has phonetics <sp> along with the original... Yes, learning a Gaelic
language is a goal of mine for some point in the future.
Hmmm... that's interesting about the Sidhe possibly being a Christian
creation. I hadn't heard that before. I guess you learn something new every
day! But actually, when you look at some of the descriptions in the
encyclopedia, many of them say "It was a reference to the Devil". I can't
believe I didn't notice that before.
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kami
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response 5 of 69:
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Sep 22 15:30 UTC 1996 |
That particular "Encyclopedia" is mostly a creative exercize. Have a look
at Rutherford or Ellis, or Rees and Rees's _Celtic Heritage_ for better
resources on the mythology and culture of the Celtic people. Also just
about anything by Miranda Green. As to language, have a look at _Teach
Yourself Irish_ (hah!) co-written by Myles Dillon, who is also one of
my favorite mythology scholars. The class I've been in uses Micheal O'Siadhael
's _Learning Irish_, which has a tape series to help with pronounciation. It's
not an ideal book for beginning language learners because it was organized
for linguists, but it's not horrible. I never got anywhere with the
pronounciation guides in books because I just couldn't translate the
phonetic transcription and examples into a real sound. Tapes help that way.
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coyote
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response 6 of 69:
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Sep 23 01:45 UTC 1996 |
Wow! I got more info in that one response than in the last three months!
Thanks! I'll let you know what I get in to.
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kentn
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response 7 of 69:
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Sep 23 22:26 UTC 1996 |
About the only thing I know about Gaelic is that it is the clue for
"Erse" in a lot of crossword puzzles. Given that, I suspect that is
only partially true (crossword clues usually take a fair bit of
liberty with such classifications). So...can anyone give a taxonomy
and/or history of Gaelic languages?
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coyote
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response 8 of 69:
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Sep 24 01:11 UTC 1996 |
Well, they're all derived from Indo-European! ;)
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kami
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response 9 of 69:
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Sep 24 02:15 UTC 1996 |
aaaargh!!!! Could take hours (I'm terrible at ascii art). Well; there's
two sets of Celtic languages-P Celtic and Q-Celtic. That refers to a consonant
shift. I believe that Welsh and Manx are P Celtic, Irish (Erse) and Scots
are Q-Celtic, and Breton *may* be (I'm too lazy to go get the dictionary)
a cross between Q-Celtic and French. Not sure about Cornish, or whether I"ve
missed any (What do they speak in the Farro islands- Scots Gaelic? What about
the Shetlands? The Hebredies?) or whether Gallega (spoken in Galecia, Spain)
is a Celtic language. Yes, they were Indo-European, but I just don't remember
how they got from there to here.
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kentn
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response 10 of 69:
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Sep 24 02:32 UTC 1996 |
Well, that was helpful to me, kami. Thanks.
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davel
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response 11 of 69:
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Sep 24 12:44 UTC 1996 |
Crosswords to the contrary, I'm told that the Irish definitely say "Irish"
not "Erse". But this is definitely secondhand info.
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robh
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response 12 of 69:
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Sep 24 14:51 UTC 1996 |
The Irish used to use "Erse" - about 1000 years ago, I think? I'll
have to check on that.
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kami
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response 13 of 69:
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Sep 24 16:57 UTC 1996 |
That sounds about right, Rob. Coulda been longer.
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robh
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response 14 of 69:
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Sep 24 17:09 UTC 1996 |
This item has been linked from Language 81 to Intro 103.
Type "join lang" at the Ok: prompt for discussion of languages,
both domestic and foreign.
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kami
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response 15 of 69:
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Sep 26 04:29 UTC 1996 |
Huh?
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srw
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response 16 of 69:
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Sep 29 21:24 UTC 1996 |
Every time someone gets a really good item going, Rob has a tendency to link
it to intro so that the new conferencers will find out about the other great
conferences on Grex. That was what just happened. It's OK.
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kami
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response 17 of 69:
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Sep 30 02:04 UTC 1996 |
No, that's not OK, that's a Good Thing (tm).
Thanks.
So- what do we want to discuss about or in Gaelic/Irish?
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rob
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response 18 of 69:
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Sep 30 21:59 UTC 1996 |
possible books of interest: *Celtic Heritage: anicient radition in
Ireland and Wales* by Alwyn & Brinleames & hudson.
If you're interested in learning language, Border's has (or used to have)
a *Teach Yourself Gaelic* book, which is ?Scots Gaelic.
Even w/ the pronunciation guide, I don't recommend using it unless
you have a good feel for how the language sounds (like you've heard
it from a native speaker and are familiar w/ the conventions.)
it is useful as a vocabulary builder & for getting a general
idea off how the language works.
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kami
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response 19 of 69:
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Oct 1 04:52 UTC 1996 |
When I first ran across _Celtic Heritage_ in '81 or '82, it was considered
very controvercial. Now it's the standard in the field. Go figure. Still
my favorite.
I'm not real impressed with "Teach yourself Gaelic", but that might just be
because it's Scots and I'm studying (desultorily, just now) Irish, but one
of the two authors of the "Teach yourself Irish" book is Myles Dillon, one
of my favorite mythology scholars, so I'm more than a bit biased in its
favor. Objectively, it's a *bit* friendlier than Michal O'Siadhal's _Learning
Irish_, but possibly not as well organized (hard at that may be to believe).
I believe the former has tapes, I know the latter does. There are a couple
other books with tapes, but they are more phrase books than language texts.
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cormac
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response 20 of 69:
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Oct 2 23:43 UTC 1996 |
Hi Kami how are you ? I spotted the new Gaelic Item and *had* to add my two
cents ;) You are right on the money with your explanation of the various
Celtic languages! FYI Breton is a purely P Celtic language with only a few
French words. The original speakers migrated *to* France from Britain during
the Anglo-Saxon invasion. In the Shetlands they speak Scots Gaelic, which is
Q-Celtic. But did you mention the Faeroes? I think they speak one of the Norse
languages there.
I learned from 'Teach Yourself Irish' by Myles Dillon too. Not bad if you can
get the L.P. Then I got a set called Buntu/s Cainte. Very idiomatic, and comes
with tapes Tapes are a *must* when learning Celtic languages. The bizarre
spelling you know.
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kami
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response 21 of 69:
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Oct 3 02:58 UTC 1996 |
Hello stranger! Cormac, you disappeared, and now I hear there's two of you?
Congrats! THanks for the elaboration on Breton. I mentioned the Faeroe
islands thinking of the song _The Great Selkie of Sule Skerry_, which sure
sounds Celtic in theme, but I also sort of remember them being Norse in
culture.
I've run across Butu/s Cainte, seemed to be more of a "phrase book" style,
like I said. I think that's what you mean by "idiomatic"? Tapes are a
good thing, conversation group would be better.
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cormac
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response 22 of 69:
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Oct 5 17:50 UTC 1996 |
Well... cell division is greatly over-rated. Cloning might have been more
comfortable! ;) In all honesty I'm not sure what you mean when you say
there's two of me. :) I'm kinda like a butterfly in my attention span. I
flit from one thing to another. I've been all over the net looking at this
and that. The people on grex are by far the friendliest!
Yeah, as far as Buntu/s Cainte it *is* basicly a phrase book, a good
foundation in the grammar is needed to make the book any value. The reason
I found it so usefull is because It translates alot of the Idioms that don't
make sence when you try to translate them directly to English. And I mean some
*really* useful ones. such as:
Mar sin....So, or therefore. (this one always threw me)
Cinnte.....Certainly (Real useful)
Ceart go leor... Right enough (Easy to translate but I wouldn't have thought
it up myself)
Maise!....Indeed! (Another useful interjection that I've heard before but
didn't realize was *actually* Irish. I heard pronounced like moosha)
Seo!...used in the way we might interject here! ex. Here! the dog has gotten
out! 'Seo! Ta' an gadhar amach againn!
But also: Seo an t-ara/n ....Here's the bread. (Is this the copula? I'm not
real good with that.)
seo duit...Here you are (as when giving some one something)
Ach oiread....Either (this one always eluded me too.)
And on and on and on it goes with a whole collection of imposible litle
phrases like this that, they hand to you all nice and solved begining right
from the ffirst lesson
Well I'm going to bop over to that other conf the name of which eludes me now.
see you there
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kami
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response 23 of 69:
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Oct 7 04:32 UTC 1996 |
Now you're being coy, Cormac <g>
The phrases are indeed useful, as are the practical definitions. Me, I want
the literal meanings, too- I want to know *why* the word means what it does,
where it comes from. I like derivations.
"Maise"- I've got it as "Muise", and it is indeed pronounced "musha"
And you've got gadhar for dog, I've got madra. Wonder what's the difference.
Don't *think* that you described the copula, but I'd have to look it up.
THis could be a fun topic of discussion- why things mean what they do.
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cormac
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response 24 of 69:
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Oct 8 00:53 UTC 1996 |
Yep Its very interesting to see how Irish speakers think via the syntax.
Sometimes, Irish words don't corespond exactly to their supposed English
translation. They really describe totally different concepts.
Dearg for instance translates popularly, into Red. but it also can mean
golden, bloody, intence bloody,inveterate, red-hot, real and lighted. as in
a fire.....cont.
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