Respect and Honor

Jun 29 06:31 UTC 1997

I have been thinking about this for a while now. 
------------------------------------------------
So I do not speak lightly nor in a disrespectful manner.
--------------------------------------------------------

When I was involved with a Men's Group, we were a Men's Group. We spoke with
men about the issues that faces us as men. Men bonding with men. Eventually,
the guards came down, the masks were put on the ground. We share heart. No
need to be other than we were.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

I need a place to be with men, to talk with men about the things that affect
me as a man.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

I would like to ask those that are not men to see this need, this time lost
in our culture, to honor this confrence for men for what it is. For Men.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

I honor woman. Without one or the other, there is no balance in life. My
asking for at time to be with men and to learn from my male elders and equals
is not meant in a disrespectful way.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am ruffled when I come here and see that a woman has entered an item, a good
one as it is. I feel that she has walked into a meeting room and sat down and
to join us. I would like to have a meeting of men, for men, by men. As I have
given the woman their space and time to discuss those things that affect them
in their lives. I ask the same with respect and honor.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
                        I have spoken my truth,
                                Johny Moonowl

response 2 of 35:

Jun 29 13:08 UTC 1997

Right. Not that there isn't a place for what you want, but I
doubt that Grex, with its open-access policies, is that place.

From their inception, the 'homme' and 'femme' conferences have
been places where contributions from both sexes have been
welcomed. I'm a man but do not want this conference to become
a for-men-only forum.

response 4 of 35:

Jun 29 14:21 UTC 1997

 I greatly appreciate the contributions made by the women in this 
conference.  I would hate to have them excluded.

response 6 of 35:

Jun 30 01:41 UTC 1997

I can understand moonowl's request, and rather than hear everone say "voilates
open access policy"  would like to hear more suggestions like raven for a male
only item.

Moonowl:  would you be comfortable with women reading but not responding to
men's discussions?

response 8 of 35:

Jun 30 12:52 UTC 1997

It's not just a matter of "violating open access policy". There's
also the issue of "how the heck do you know what gender a person
is?" in this medium.

A male-only item could be tried, but how would you know if it
was working? Remember that Grex doesn't require real names. How
would you know if a woman was responding, using a male-sounding
pseudonym? Or how do you that some user with a female-sounding
name isn't really male? For that matter, since to the best of my
knowledge I've never met "Johnny Moonowl" in person, how do I know
that *he* is male? Perhaps he's a female pseudo having some fun
with us. Now he sounds sincere and genuine, so I've been taking
what he says at face value, but I don't *know* that he's genuine,
pseudos do exist, and I've been fooled before.

response 10 of 35:

Jul 1 01:08 UTC 1997

As a matter of fact, a technique that is sometimes used in helping a group
reach consensus is to divide the group into to the (usually) two opposing
groups, and have one group sit outside the circle listenting to the other
group discuss the problem.  Then you switch the groups and require the first
group to listen to the discussion of the same problem by the other side.

The "out" group is required to stay silent during the whole process: no
arguments, no additional information, no requests for clarification, no
comments.  Perhaps we could ask people to try this technique for an item or
two in homme/femme.  

The conclusion of this exercise is to bring the group back together as a
whole, and have them try to find a workable compromise for the whole group.
That might be a third item which was clearly labeled as the joint
discussion item.  

While remmers is right, that there is no way to enforce this, I think most
of the participants in these two conferences have be pretty civilized, and
we could at least ask this of them.  

response 14 of 35:

Jul 2 16:25 UTC 1997

That's one of my points, yes.

The other is that I don't feel the same way that moonowl does
about women responding in this conference. I welcome their
participation, don't see how issues of Honor or Respect come
into it at all, and don't personally feel a need for the kind of
private men-only forum that moonowl wants. But that's a personal
difference between us, and a different issue.

response 16 of 35:

Jul 5 23:14 UTC 1997

That's exactly the point, jan and thanks for making it. Most of us have a
difficult time being men around other men, having emotional conversations,
really getting to know the other as a person, letting the macho bull shti go
and just being who we are. The point of it is that we {are} one way when the
gals are around and another when they aren't. Discussions about "man-things"
without the women around is something that generally doesn't happen, because
of the social conditioning of men in the first place. Perhaps if one needs
the other to have a balanced conversation, perhaps the imbalance is what needs
to be addressed in the first place. Men's groups as such have very little if
anything to do with testosterone. Perhaps your unwillingness to join this
group until you found out that the ladies was here indicates just how hard
it is to really get close to other men and to talk about all aspects of life
without the macho need to appear strong. Getting close to other men in our
society has many homophobic responses that are unfounded. Discussing emotion
topics {with other men} isn't something we tend to do. Usually we sit around
the tv and watch a game or play golf. Not much time discussing fears and
stresses. My father passed in Feb. Can my wife truely understand what I am
going through? I know she does in general, however, the {male} friends that
I have who have also lost their fathers, wow, what a differance that makes
when I talk to them about it, just I can never truely understand the mother
child connection. I understand "around" it if you know what I mean. Perhaps
the is an undiscovered depth with really getting to know other men that you
haven't experienced. Perhaps there are reasons, ancient reasons, for men and
women to have their separate time as well as there together time. 
        Truely being a man is differant than being a women. One is not better
than the other, they are simply different with overlapping commonalities. I
can not learn what it is to be a man from a woman, I can only learn what a
woman expects a man to be and that very well may be different. I was raised
to be the provider of the family. This is a left over from a different time,
however, this idea is rooted in my upbringing. My wife doesn't understand the
stress this attitude causes, this self (societal?) exspectation. She thinks
I'm nuts in this way, and I may be. However, her answer is to say "Well, that
isn't true, I work." So now we have more than one issue. She is feeling
discounted and I need to talk about regaining a balance in my life. The men
in my life understand this conflict that I have and I can learn from them what
they did to unlearn that expectation. There are many women that I hear say
that they want to be treated the same as mean and I believe what they really
mean is that they wish to be treated as equals, to be treated with respect
and not discounted for who and what they are. Men and women are different and
we as men have our unique issues, too. So consider a men's item and see what
comes of it.
        A men's forum for and by men isn't about who's shlong is the biggest,
it's about getting real with other men, talking about the emotional and
spiritual aspects of being men, of the differance between what being a man
is and what society tells us it is. Macho men don't last long in that
environemnt, perhaps because the macho thing is an illussion. There is much
more to the man than the car and the wallet and the muscles.

response 18 of 35:

Jul 6 14:31 UTC 1997

Re: #16  Are you sure you're not simply looking for
cheap psychotherapy?  

response 20 of 35:

Jul 6 14:54 UTC 1997

Those are some pretty significant issues he is seeking to
resolve.  Issues that (if thay are really bothersome) are 
probably best addressed with professional help.  I see
nothing hurtful in my response.  

response 24 of 35:

Jul 7 19:54 UTC 1997

Unlike Valerie, I do believe that men and women are different in their
feelings, responses, and how they are treated by the people around them
(society).  So I can see a need for two conferences, Homme and Femme.  

However, you wouldnt expect to have private conversations at a conference
table in the public library, where a large sign is posted on the door
saying "Men's Forum--main floor". Instead, you would invite a few men to
meet at your home and would get to know them a bit before opening up your
heart. 

Let them take it to an email list.  A man who is interested and makes
contributions in this conference could easily be added to the list by any
member of that list.  This conference can focus on male issues, and at the
same time not exclude anyone who thinks they have something to offer.