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hokshila
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Real Men Are ......
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Dec 6 00:25 UTC 1996 |
One of the things that I find lacking in our society are the rites
of passage that move a young man into manhood, a man into the role
of the elder. I feel that lacking rites of passage contributes to
situations such as mid-life crisis, adolesent emptyness and a loss
of elders in our communities. Also lacking is the male bonding of
coffee house. We lack the modalities that guilded our greatgrand-
fathers through life.
For two years, I was a part of a men's group. We got together every
week, and filled eachother in on what was going on in our lives...
what was really going on...and boy, it was tough to let the guards
down....
Perhaps the loss of the rites of passage have contributed to our not
knowing what it really means to be a man......
I would like to know what you think about the loss of rites of passage
and whether or not you think that rites of passage would help those
that are coming up behind us, as well as ourselves....
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| 25 responses total. |
robh
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response 1 of 25:
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Dec 6 01:29 UTC 1996 |
Funny you should mention it, since our Druid grove is trying
to come up with rites of passage for our young men and women,
since we find the same thing lacking. In our culture, adolescence
is a nebulous area, with no clearly defined roles. Our youths
do not know whehter they are adults or children, and end up
doing badly in either sense.
Alas, I have no specific remedies for this problem, though I hope
that we can find some.
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bubu
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response 2 of 25:
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Dec 6 19:28 UTC 1996 |
I don't know about specific rites of passage, but I do know that I did
not have a Father in my home when I was a boy. I did however have a
better role model in my GrandFather. My GrandFather is from the old
school. He does things the right way, lives life with respect for
everyone. He taught me to love my family above all others....I think
that if every young man would have had the opportunity that I had with
my GrandFather this world would be a much better place to live
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hokshila
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response 3 of 25:
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Dec 7 09:16 UTC 1996 |
My father was absent in my home...he was there, but not involved, and both
my grandfathers were dead by age 8. I know I missed something in that.
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janc
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response 4 of 25:
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Dec 8 04:41 UTC 1996 |
I've never felt a big lack of a rite of passage. It's true that at 37 I still
think of myself as not being fully an adult. But I don't think of that as
a problem, and I don't think any rite would have much effect on that feeling.
Probably I'll feel like I kid until the first time I hold a child of my own
in my arms.
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popcorn
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response 5 of 25:
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Dec 8 05:25 UTC 1996 |
This response has been erased.
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robh
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response 6 of 25:
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Dec 8 07:10 UTC 1996 |
Actually, I didn't have that sense of a rite of passage when I
lost mine. Maybe it was all just too overwhelming for me. >8)
Obviously at least some people can function without such cultural
rites of passage, or our culture would have disintegrated by now.
I think we're really asking whether creating some now would help
matters.
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denise
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response 7 of 25:
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Dec 8 16:09 UTC 1996 |
I think it WOULD be interesting to have some sense of 'rituals' so
to speak, be it cultural or just familial [within families]. I don't sense
in my family any sense of ritual-at least nothing long term or concrete.
[There ARe a few things that HAVE been a part of our lives that in time, have
changed, but I don't really call them too ritualistic.]
Like Jan, I'm also 37 years old and don't always consider myself as an adult
[or "old" as some of my friends feel when they're of this age group]. I think
a big part of this is BECAUSE I haven't accomplished a lot of what I had
expected I would [or should] by this point in my life. And thus, until I
achieve these "accomplishments", I'm still not quite an adult . Or at least,
not my earlier ideas of what an adult is [vs kids, adolescents, whatever].
On the other hand, I've never been overly fond of labels or stereotypes [ie,
adults should have/be THIS, women should be THAT, all Irish/German folks are
<whatever>, ]
In these past 5 1/2 years I've lived in NC [away from my family and Michigan
friends], I've really missed a lot of things--so maybe there HAVE been some
rituals? I dunno, perhaps I need to just start some of my own rituals... For
example, I've always been rather down over the winter holidays [since moving
down here]--because I feel "empty" being here by myself. So--time to come up
with fun rituals and perhaps, rites of paassage of my own.
Heh, maybe some day I *will* grow up-but then, how much fun would that be?
:-)
Ok, enough rambling for one post...
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mta
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response 8 of 25:
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Dec 8 22:40 UTC 1996 |
Hmmm. Interesting. I'm also 37, and I also don't feel fully "grown up."
I've had and raised my children and am looking at grandparenthood as a very
real possibility in the next ten years. (Five if either of my kids spawns
at the same age I did.) I've gotten a degree and become a respected
professional with a growing carreer. I've married the man of my dreams and
we plan to buy a house in about 3 years.
All of those things are things I expected to make me feel grown up. If buying
the house doesn't do it, I may die an very happy adolescent at age 90. <grin>
I've sometimes wondered if anyone ever actually felt "grown up". I was
convinced not until Valerie and I had this talk about 4 years ago. I had
finally met a grown up!!
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popcorn
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response 9 of 25:
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Dec 9 08:07 UTC 1996 |
This response has been erased.
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robh
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response 10 of 25:
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Dec 9 09:00 UTC 1996 |
Actually, that's *exactly* what I want. >8) But I won't speak
for anyone else on that.
I'm not certain that high school graduation has that same meaning
in our culture, since (for me and my friends anyway) it just
means you stop going to one kind of school, and start going to
another kind of school instead. Graduating from college was much
more like a rite of passage in that regard, though I f*cked up by
missing my graduation ceremony. >8( And even then, since I
couldn't get a job right after I graduated, that didn't quite fit
the bill either. I really just went from "work 35 hours a week at
McDonalds and go to school part-time" to "work 40 hours a week at
McDonalds".
Re lighting candles on the shortest day of the year - gosh, wonder
where she got that idea! >8) Celebrating the winter solstice with
a ritual involving light has been around for millenia.
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popcorn
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response 11 of 25:
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Dec 9 17:00 UTC 1996 |
This response has been erased.
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robh
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response 12 of 25:
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Dec 9 18:13 UTC 1996 |
I've known people who do that as well. Not every single person
I know is a pagan, it just seems that way. >8)
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hokshila
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response 13 of 25:
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Dec 10 04:52 UTC 1996 |
RE#9 Yes, I would have benfited from an actual celebration in front
of the community that would say "You are now and adult, and this is what is
expected from you as an adult." I would then have not had to have been in that
nebulus time in my life were I was an adult and yet not seen as an adult...
You can vote, but not drink, get married legally but your not old enough to
get married...etc...etc....etc. I friend of mine had a rite of passage for
her daughter at the time her daughter had her first period. This was
traditionally when a girl became a woman. We brought gifts, danced, ate and
treated her as a woman from that point on. She was taught by the wemon what
was what in the way of becoming a woman and all in all, she is the most stable
teenager at this point in her life. I can't say that it is JUST because of
the rite of passage, however, that did have quite a profound impact on her.
She was in awe that the community took the time to recognize her importance
and coming of age.
The rituals that I had growing up were: hitting puberty (not that any
one took the time to explain what that meant), drinking for the first time,
going to the prom, getting my drivers lisense, and graduating from high
school. And yet none of these things said "You are now apart of the adult
community".
The other end of this is when we become elders. The lack of rite here
contributes to societies view of the elderly. They are not looked to as a
source of wisdom and guidance. A rite of passage for people in this way would
define thier role in society, as all rites do, instead of searching for the
meaning of growing old. I think that not having rites of passage leaaves many
of us wondering why we need them. I think it is because the define our
relationship to the community and the community's attitude toward us.
Peace, Love and Light,
Johnny
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blondval
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response 14 of 25:
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Dec 10 07:34 UTC 1996 |
We do need rites of passage in our society ... that's one of the reasons gangs
are so popular among youths because they hav ecodes of behavior and expected
norms and rites for becomming a member and being seen as an adult these are
often disfunctional socially like selling drugs or killing people in hits but
it gives these youths a sense of purpose , family and belonging .
fraternities and Soroities serve much the same social function in our society
to often having elaborate membership rituals including symbolic death and
rebirth (hazing ) in which the initiate undertakes some dangerous or otherwise
arcane acts which once completed set him apart socially so that he ?she can
then take on the new identitiy as brother or sister. The lasrtt vestigides
of rites of passage in out society are weddings in which death to an old life
(bachelor parties/bachlorette) ) and the taking of a new identity as a couple
thru a ceremony including the leavign of the parent family unit (giving the
bride away
) and then the joining of a new unit (the exchange of rings )symbolize the
new rebirth.
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hokshila
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response 15 of 25:
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Dec 10 14:31 UTC 1996 |
Excellent points. I hadn't thought of gangs in that light, however,
I agree with your assement. Wonder what we can do for ourselves and for our
sons and daughters in this way.
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denise
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response 16 of 25:
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Dec 11 01:21 UTC 1996 |
Hmm, I guess looking back over this item, I've certainly have had a number
of rites of passages... Its just a culmination of a lot of them that has made
me who I am, I guess. And with having so many siblings in the family, by the
time I had accomplished many of these rites, it didn't seem to get the
recognition that it otherwise might have if I was one of the 'older' kids or
not from such a large family... So by the time that I graduated from college
for example, several other siblings already had--so it wasn't as special.
Especially by the time I got my nursing degree [with honors], by then, we had
10 post HS degrees in the family--so though this was important to ME [still
IS], my family didn't attend the regular graduation ceremony... Though I did
make them attend the nursing one!! Anyone that didn't make it would have been
disowned from the family!! :-)
Seriously, though... My rites of passage are in part what *I* make of it [but
outside influences-ie, family and friends' input is also a big part of it,
too. After all, we ALL want to seem/be recognized as being important and in
reaching certain milestones!]
As for rituals and rites of passage, they can and often are parts of each
other. But hey, I do like the idea of having more of my own rituals in life.
In using Valerie's friend as an example, using the lighted candles on the
shortest day of the year. Even though LOTS of people may use the candle
lighting, too--what SHE [or he?] does is special FOR HER in whatever means
she uses and finds as special.
Some rituals are found/discovered by accident... As some of you already know
based on my 'solo travel' item in the women and travel conferences, I went
on a trip this fall. It was the first time I had taken a trip such as this,
by myself. And I was truly amazed about what I've discovered--about myself,
about nature, about lots of things... So much so, that I plan on doing such
a ritual trip each and every year [if not more often!] At least every fall,
come rain or snow or nice weather... I'll be taking such a sojourn. [Hmm, so
in this first time event--I can say that it was a rite of passage; the
subsequent trips will be my yearly rituals...
Sorry if this isn't making a lot of sense--I didn't seem to follow any
specific train of thought, was just typing as thoughts popped into my head!
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popcorn
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response 17 of 25:
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Dec 11 04:41 UTC 1996 |
This response has been erased.
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hokshila
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response 18 of 25:
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Dec 11 18:55 UTC 1996 |
The vision quest and the walk about are ancient rites of passage, both
designed to aide the individual in self discovery and in connecting to the
oneness.....sounds like you did a little of both of these....
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e4808mc
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response 19 of 25:
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Dec 11 19:49 UTC 1996 |
Do any cultures have rites of passage for elders? I can't think of any
tradition that specifically celebrates becoming an elder.
Becoming a grandparent is, perhaps, a marker (just like several people have
said that becoming a parent is their marker for being an adult).
But what about those who never have kids? And is there any ritual that anyone
knows about?
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robh
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response 20 of 25:
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Dec 12 02:09 UTC 1996 |
Neo-pagans have various rituals for marking someone's transition
to elder status.
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hokshila
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response 21 of 25:
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Dec 12 10:19 UTC 1996 |
The native americans have rites of passage for entering the elder phase of
life. In the Ute tradition, a woman who is past the time of the moon is given
a sacred pipe for prayer and vision. She doesn't need it before then because
her moon time IS a sacred prayer bringing vision. The men become grandfathers,
sit on counsils and can perform ceremonies that can only be performed by the
elders. Different tribes have different traditions in this way.
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popcorn
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response 22 of 25:
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Dec 12 20:38 UTC 1996 |
This response has been erased.
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e4808mc
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response 23 of 25:
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Dec 13 02:27 UTC 1996 |
I'm curious too. What do the rituals celebrate?
re: #21. hoshila, how do the Utes decide a man is ready to be an elder?
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robh
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response 24 of 25:
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Dec 13 04:03 UTC 1996 |
Re 22 and 23 - As with any question of "How do neo-Pagans do...",
it depends entirely on who's doing it and what their traditions
are. There's and old saying - ask 10 pagans what religion they
practice, and you'll get twenty different answers. >8)
Generally, women are made elders during or after menopause, since
that's a nice, definitive event that happens to all women who live
long enough, which also marks the point at which they cannot become
new mothers any more. (And yes, I know of women who has hysterectomies in
their 20's and were made elders at that time.) Maybe we should make
the breakpoint for men the first time they get a prostrate exam? >8)
I know that the Church of All Worlds has some specific guidelines
and qualifications for Elder status, but not being in CAW, I don't
know what they are.
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