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jdg
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Voltmeisters, help!
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Nov 10 21:46 UTC 1991 |
I'm considering buying a kitchen implement that runs at 220 volts. My stove,
also, runs at 220 volts. There is only one 220 outlet in my entire house,
and it's behind the stove, where it belongs.
I don't *necessarily* need both the stove and this additional implement
running at the same time, but it would be *convenient* if they could. I'd
like to use one of the burners on the stove at the same time I'm using this
other implement.
1. Can I go to the hardware store and find a 220 volt "Y" connector so that
I can do this?
2. Why not?
(For those who wonder, the implement is a 6.5 gallon plastic vessel with
a heater and thermostat attached. The plastic can withstand boiling
temperatures without stress.)
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| 55 responses total. |
mdw
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response 1 of 55:
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Nov 10 22:16 UTC 1991 |
Hmm. It all depends on (a) how much work you'd like to put into this,
and (b) what the power requirements of this are. I presume europeans
find it useful to buy "120 to 220" converters just as we find it
useful to buy the opposite. Or, one of the older US 120/220 converters
(any that's transformer based) could be rewired to work in reverse;
a 1:2 step up transformer will work just fine as a 2:1 step down
transformer. Or, if you are willing to rewire the house, things
may become much more trivial. Turns out almost all american households
today are supplied with 220 V anyways (that's how your stove works),
so it's not too hard to hook up additional outlets. One in the
basement near the fuse box would be essentially trivial. Bringing one
out further away might be a bit more tricky. Or, yet another possibility:
if you can find 2 110V outlets that are on opposites sides of neutral,
you can get 220 V that way. The dangers from screwing up are fairly
minimal for a heater -- either it won't work it all, or it'll get
half voltage and work poorly. That would be bad for an air conditioner,
but shouldn't hurt a heater at all. You can always use a voltmeter
to check the possibilities, of course. I guess that's your "Y"
connector, as I think about it. I doubt you could buy it, but
if you can find the right sort of female 220V outlet, it should
be trivial to wire one up.
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mistik
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response 2 of 55:
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Nov 10 22:40 UTC 1991 |
I understand this European equipment has also an European (non-british)
connector. I would suggest that you make sure that the protective ground
is connected to protective ground properly, not to neutral. Also check
if this piece of equipment has the protective ground connected to any metal
parts outside and/or metal parts coming in contact with the fluid. Also
using a fault detection circuit is a must if I had done it. Fault detection
circuits detect if any of the current your euipment is using gets lost (over
your body for example) and disconnect quickly. Maybe someone is more
knowledgeable about their types. There are different classes of it for
various uses (such as in the garden, in the bathroom, ??)
Of course, if you overload the circuits the breaker for the stove would turn
them all off. Add up the watts, and see if you go over the limit.
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chelsea
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response 3 of 55:
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Nov 10 22:57 UTC 1991 |
We need a wiring conference here. ;-)
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jdg
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response 4 of 55:
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Nov 10 23:58 UTC 1991 |
This device isn't European, its high-wattage. They make a 110 volt version,
but it doesn't heat fast or well enough. The use of a single additional
2600 watt burner on the stove shouldn't blow the 30-amp or 60-amp fuse.
Not breaker. This house is circa 1954. I'm unwilling to re-wire or
add new 220 connections, as the basement ceiling is made of celetex and
can't be removed/replaced cheaply or easily. I don't want to add a 220
connection at the fuse box, due to its location.
Does this help?
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danr
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response 5 of 55:
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Nov 11 00:51 UTC 1991 |
Why don't you add a second outlet above or below the current one.
If you aren't exceeding the current capability of the circuit, you
can just wire the two outlets in parallel.
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klaus
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response 6 of 55:
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Nov 11 02:25 UTC 1991 |
Either that or have someone add a second 220v circuit. Should be no big
deal if there is room in the breaker box.
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jdg
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response 7 of 55:
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Nov 11 02:59 UTC 1991 |
Klaus, I can't do that do to expense - to get it where it has to go. If it
were *any* old place, then next to the fuse box would be fine. Unfortunately,
that's the wrong place.
Dan, you're idea has merit (to me, anyway). Any comments on that parallel
hookup? Isn't this sort of what I meant by a "y" connection?
Somewhat like the 2 female connectors on the standard 110 box.
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mistik
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response 8 of 55:
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Nov 11 03:07 UTC 1991 |
I guess if you know how to handle the protective ground stuff, it should work.
I still would add a fault current breaker.
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ragnar
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response 9 of 55:
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Nov 11 06:29 UTC 1991 |
You can probably obtain a y-connector in a good hardware store, or build one e
easily enough. You just need one plug and two sockets. Just keep the same
wires to the same pin positions in each plug and jack, you don't need to know
which is which or what colors are normally used or anything, just use thick
enough wire and you're all set.
BTW, Marcus alluded to this, but I don't think anyone mentioned it
specifically. There aren't really any 220 volts wires in a home in the US,
there are two lines in inverted phase entering the house. One is at +110
volts while the other is at -110 volts, so they get up to 220 volts apart.
Some appliances use this 220-volt ac signal directly, I think the heater
here just has two separate elements drawing off each line.
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klaus
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response 10 of 55:
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Nov 11 13:12 UTC 1991 |
Naw, it's a single 220 vac element. These voltages are all relative. If
you measure voltage from either of the live wires coming into your house
to ground, you'll get about 110 vac. If you measure between these two
wires, you'll get about 220 vac. The reason Josh wants to use 220 vac
is because Power = Current X Voltage. If you double the voltage, you
halve the current for the same power output. i.e. smaller wire required
for the circuit and a smaller fuse in the box. Most 220 vac circuits can
deliver 6,600 Watts, some more (30A X 220 vac).
I think most range heating elements have the wattage rating stamped into
their mounting bracket. Take this figure and add it to the power rating
of the element of your "hot water tank". Go to your breaker box and see
what size fuses (there should be 2) you have on your stove circuit (30A?)
and multiply this value by 220 for power available. Take the difference
and if it's positive go out and do the "Y" thing. If it's negative, you
will have to make some sacrifices in what is turned "on" or you'll blow
fuses. If you want to be super safe and maybe up to code, install a
ground fault interrupter. Otherwise make sure that all the metal parts
in your "tank" are well grounded, including the heating element itself,
and it will be as safe as your range is currently.
You should be able to get the parts at any good hardware or electrical
store. Make a detailed drawing of the plug currently on your range.
There are several variations on 220 vac plugs, and they all look the
same! Good luck!
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mistik
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response 11 of 55:
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Nov 11 23:28 UTC 1991 |
Ehm, I hope this thing is designed for 220 use, if it was designed for 110,
it will give 4 times the heat -- that will blow it up soon.
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jdg
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response 12 of 55:
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Nov 12 00:16 UTC 1991 |
It was designed for 220. Honest. Just like an electric range or an electric
dryer.
(Its a mashing tun. "What's that?" you ask. A device for heating 6 gallons
of liquid to specific degrees F, like 122, for a proteolitic enzyme activity.
Then, moved to 152-158 F, for a variety of diastatic activity. Later,
the temperature will be moved to 212 F for another variety of activities.
All of these have to do with converting starches to sugars for eventual
consumption by yeast. 'Nuff said.)
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mistik
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response 13 of 55:
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Nov 12 00:59 UTC 1991 |
kind of breadmaker???
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bad
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response 14 of 55:
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Nov 12 02:14 UTC 1991 |
Beer. This is the beer guy.
Or, some form of alcoholic beverage.
They have huge mash vats at the Jack Daniels distillery. I leaned way
far over one, once, and inhaled deeply. Snapped back so fast I almost
lost my glasses.
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jdg
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response 15 of 55:
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Nov 12 03:37 UTC 1991 |
"The beer guy?" Sheesh. But yes, for exacting temperature "step-mashing"
to make beer from grain. Not to mash corn to make whiskey, which is
heavily taxed and difficult to license.
Beer and wine, on the other hand, can be made in small quantities without
being taxed. But none of this has to do with electricity, does it?
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mistik
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response 16 of 55:
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Nov 12 03:39 UTC 1991 |
Interesting, I didn't know the beer making procedure.
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jdg
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response 17 of 55:
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Nov 12 03:48 UTC 1991 |
Well, there are many ways to go about it. I'm just trying to complicate
my methodology. I've been brewing for about 5 or 6 years without a mashing
tun, by using malt extracts and by small-scale mashing on the stove top
(or even in the microwave).
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mistik
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response 18 of 55:
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Nov 12 04:16 UTC 1991 |
I wonder if anyone in the kitchen conference would be interested in making
beer? Would you like to enter an item there on how to make beer?
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jdg
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response 19 of 55:
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Nov 12 05:34 UTC 1991 |
I have entered two recipes there. It didn't spark a tremendous amount
of interest.
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bad
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response 20 of 55:
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Nov 12 06:52 UTC 1991 |
Yeah, you've got to be someone who's both into going to some lengths in
preparing food, and really into beer.
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mdw
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response 21 of 55:
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Nov 12 06:54 UTC 1991 |
I kind of suspected it was some sort of incubator of brews. The
interesting question, however, is the power and/or current rating
of this device.
It's very probably that if you try the 'Y' thing you're going
to have to deal with long cords draped inconvenient distances,
to get to two sockets of the opposite polarity (so as
to get that 220 V). You may want to think very carefully
about the location for this device & its cord. Or, are you
talking about a "Y" to go between the stove & its outlet?
Mmmm. I'd think real hard about things before going with
anything like that. Stoves can consume a *lot* of current.
That "Y" better have some pretty thick conductors in it.
You're probably better off wiring a separate outlet, and
leaving the Stove alone.
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danr
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response 22 of 55:
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Nov 12 12:06 UTC 1991 |
Is this a stand-alone stove? If so, perhaps you could punch a hole
in the side and mount an outlet there.
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jdg
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response 23 of 55:
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Nov 12 12:42 UTC 1991 |
re 20: Brian, I brew because of the fabulous variety, quality, and
freshness that are impossible to find in commercial brew.
re 21: Marcus, I plan on making a one-outlet 220 circuit into a two-outlet
circuit. Its got to be more than 30 ampere, as I've got 1 2600 watt burner,
three 1600 watt burners, plus oven/broiler at unknown wattages. 7,400 watts
at 220 volt is 33.6 Amps. I planned on using only the single 2600 watt
burner at the same time as the mashing tun.
re 22: Dan, that's a great idea! That way, I don't have to pull the stove
out from the wall to connect things up! Unfortunately, this is a 50's era
stove and you can't GET the skins off of it, and I wanted to do as little
work as possible. For example, sticking a plug that goes into the existing
outlet and has two outlets on it for the stove and the new heater (a "Y",
marcus) is really what I'd like to have.
I've heard that 220 outlets have special shapes for their amperage. Here's
an ascii picture of mine:
\ /
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klaus
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response 24 of 55:
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Nov 12 13:13 UTC 1991 |
Like I said, there are several flavors of 220 vac outlets. Draw an
accurate picture of what you now have, including spade angles, widths
and keying features. Doing so will reduce the number of trips to
the electric store, unless your the lucky sort. As mentioned above,
make sure the wire gauge is heavy enough to carry the current. #10
wire is rated 33A continuous duty for wires in conduit or bundles.
Don't go any smaller than 10 A.W.G.
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