Language

Feb 3 03:56 UTC 1998

I think font's plot to stir of this conference is working :)

One thing that struck me, actually, in your 'rant' in item one, is that you
used the word 'dyke' as a friendly term, which brought an old question of mine
back to the surface.  I'd be curious to hear opinions...
Where is the line between acceptable terms and offensive terms for you?  (i.e.
is 'queer' an insult or a useful all-purpose word?  is 'faggot' or 'dyke' a
slur or a joke?)

For that matter, I guess, the language confusion doesn't stop with supposed
insults.  Does 'gay' only apply to men?  Does it include bisexuals, or only
homosexuals?  What does 'queer' include, anyway?

Like I said, I think it would be interesting to see what everyone thinks...go
forth an ramble.

response 2 of 61:

Feb 3 05:52 UTC 1998

All those words have fuzzy meanings, and lots of people have hot-button
reactions.  Better to learn what someone calls himself/herself/itself,
go with that, then learn what he/she/it actually means by the word(s)
as you get to know 'em.  [This response seems correct, but boring.] 

response 4 of 61:

Feb 3 17:42 UTC 1998

Hmmm...that's interesting.  Yeah, I think one of the hardest parts of writing
in a convincing fantasy setting is coming up with language and customs - it's
easy enough to say 'this culture accepts homosexuality', but that doesn't mean
it's easy to say 'here's how they'd talk about it'.
Is it that this culture you're imagining views both sexes as equivalent, or
just that they don't have the whole 'husband and wife' hangup that ours does?
I agree with you, Walter, on the 'correct but boring' bit.  If I was going
to be politically correct, it wouldn't be that much of an effort, but I don't
much like the sound of PC-talk.

response 6 of 61:

Feb 4 01:04 UTC 1998

Well, there was an earlier culture that did distinguish, and a goddess who
looked after.  (she's married to the goddess of war, btw)  It is a culture
where historically females were more revered than males, but this has changed
(in the way of all changing things...inconsistently changed...not all have
followed the change).  It is not a my way to bash the males, but a way to
do a flip-flop and see what's up with it.  

response 8 of 61:

Feb 4 03:07 UTC 1998

I can hardly imagine a culture in which there wasn't _some_ distinction
between straight and queer relationships in their language.  Granted, it's
possible to call both 'love' - we do that now, and our culture makes a huge
distinction between the two even still.  

Think of it this way.  In our culture eye color isn't generally a huge deal.
Most people don't consider green eyes superior to brown or vice versa, and
we don't define people based on their eye color (putting aside aryan
supremacist groups and the like for a moment), and yet we still _distinguish_
between green and brown eyes.  It's possible to imagine a culture that
considers men and women equal, even interchangeable, but I have trouble
imagining a culture that _doesn't distinguish at all_ - if nothing else,
there's still the basic biological differences, even when the social
differences are gone.
So, I think it's perfectly reasonable to imagine a language in which the word
for 'homosexual' has no connotations of taboo or immorality, but there still
is a concrete difference between homosexual and heterosexual relationships,
and that difference isn't going to go away no matter how open the culture is.
So, I think the _word_ would survive even if the _connotations_ it has now
didn't.

response 10 of 61:

Feb 4 19:42 UTC 1998

Okay, it's a flawed metaphor...
But< I find it concievable that a culture would ahve only three different
color distinctions - color is a continuum, and you can put the line wherever
you want.  There is, for the most part, a concrete line between male and
female.  

Look, if nothing else you're going to get a distinction between 'the kind of
relationship where someone can get pregnant' and 'the kind of relationship
where someone can't'

response 12 of 61:

Feb 6 23:50 UTC 1998

The term I have used (for now) in my novel (since it is sort of focusing on
two female characters) is "lady lover" for *anyone* who loves women (male or
female) and "him lover" for those who like men.  Now the reson there isn't
much in the bi lines doesn't mean that there aren't bi ones (many women almost
*have* to be bi, as there are a signifacantly more females than males in this
society, and the overall population is deminishing due to outside influences)
but that relationships are more often assessed one at a time in the third
person.  It's a cultural thing.  (assessed=talked about...not to say that they
are strictly monogamous either...and it's not really a taboo, it's just
expected that you respect your Other's wishes (Other=main squeeze).)
And yes, there is a separate word for the sort of male you have around the
house to get pregnant with..  <g>  this is more lingusitic sediment from the
strictly matriarchal times...(I said earlier I was looking at matriarchy and
what the differences would be...not all of them being good) and it's not a
very flattering term...somehwere between "toy" and "worker".  Its' not quite
slave either, as these fellas have more rights...but it's still not *that*
great.  (it also depends on the matriarch, and how closesly she listens to
the rumors that males are more likely to kill cubs..this species is sorta cat
like, so the vague posibility is there...but they (the males) are usually more
feeling than that and are greatly upset by not being able to see their own
children till they get to a certain age...but this is somewhat off topic)

response 14 of 61:

Mar 18 23:14 UTC 1998

(This is kind of tangential, but for some reason, an Ani DiFranco song comes
to mind... "There are a thousand shades of white and a thousand shades of
black...."  I think the song is "Every State Line".... who knows... I think
it is probably becuase of the way we like to put things in compartments, and
the languge we use towards thsat is limiting... )

response 16 of 61:

Mar 29 15:27 UTC 1998

How many different words besides 'queer' are used for GLBs and by GLBs, and
do they have different connotations when used by people inside and outside
the group, as did 'nigger' when used by whites or blacks?  If you call
yourself queer, I presume this is not an insult, whereas it might be if
someone else used it about you.  Am i right?  Is there some sort of insulting
term used by queers about other queers that they don't like?

response 18 of 61:

Mar 29 17:40 UTC 1998

generic terms: queer and family are the major ones. "queer" is prjorative when
used by non-friendlies (i.e. unsupportives), and can be perjorative in-group.
"family" is not perjorative in-group so much as i think some people see it
as overly affectionate... it forces me to have an association with *all*
queers, whether i like them or not. "gay" generally doesn't apply to bisexuals
(whereas "queer" generally does), but otherwise seems to be the most neutral
term. "bent" is also used, though less commonly (as in opposition to
"straight"), and i imagine variations on "rainbow" and "pride" might be used
elsewhere, but i haven't heard them
  
for homosexual men (*and bis too): there's such a huge number of perjoratives
that have been reclaimed, to varying degrees. "sissy" is a specific kink (and
not always gay); "fag" and "faggot" are common in-group terms of affection;
"homo" is perjorative regardless, as far as i've always heard; the more
graphic terms, likewise (buttmunch, fudgepacker, pillowbiter), though i *have*
heard gay (in my case, bi, actually) men use them amongst each other in
hostile joking... non-perjoratives include, primarily, "gay", which is
ambiguous between homosexual men and homosexuals in general. 

for homosexual women: Lesbian and dyke are the primary terms. They pattern
similar to family and queer, in my experience: Lesbian and family are seen
as too "proper" by some, while "dyke" and "queer" are seen as too "vulgar"
for others. "grrl" is popular, though i've seen many references to "grrl"s
not as a sexual orientation, but to women who have chutzpah that LEsbians tend
to like (many musicians, for instance, are grrls even though their orientation
isn't known). "butch" and "femme" (also "deisel" and "lipstick", respectively)
are in-group pseudo-perjoratives (that is, queers use them to refer to each
other, and frequently to insult each other) for "masculine" and "feminie"
dykes, respectively.
  
speaking of in-group perjoratives, i can't believe i forgot "queen" -- which
can be perjorative both in and out-group, though i have a regular on-line
partner who's M>F TG and makes me call her "Queen" when I'm subbing to her
(i mentioned her before here, actually). "size queen" (a gay man who looks
primarily for large cocks), "pretty boy," "leather boy," and "bear" are also
in-group terms for specific types of men, frequently gay (though certainly
not always, especially with "bear")
  
and to end my little spiel on terms, "threesome" (the movie) included the term
"fag hag" for a (straight) woman who hangs out with gay men to gossip with
them...

response 20 of 61:

Mar 30 00:16 UTC 1998

heheh"bent" odd, yet interesting brighn....
"not straight" has been a wordage i have used... doesn't relly get
to the point though 
ah well
never said the american language was THAT good.

response 22 of 61:

Mar 31 05:01 UTC 1998

Family is fairly recent, and fairly in-group.
  
Subbing is a BDSM term for someone serving someone else in a sexual or
pseudosexual context.
  
I've heard "warped" suggested, in jest, for bis (based on the straight-bent
distinction).
  
Perjoratives can be used as in-group affectionate terms in nearly every
in-group: nigger, wop, kike, polack, etc... I've certainly heard all of those
being used between (respectively) African-Americans, Italians, Jews, and Poles
as "joking hostility".

response 24 of 61:

Apr 1 07:44 UTC 1998

I shall never think of substatute teaching (subbing) in the same way again.
 :-P