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Grex > Femme > #53: Whatever happens to adolescent girls? | |
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headdoc
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Whatever happens to adolescent girls?
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Feb 7 13:22 UTC 1996 |
I am currently reading a book called "Reviving Ophelia"written by Mary Pipher,
Ph.D. The story of Ophelia, from Hamlet, shows the destructive forces that
affect young adolescent women. As a girl, Ophelia is happy and free, but when
she enters her adolescence she loses her true self. She falls in love with
Hamlet and lives only for his approval. She loses her inner direction, and
rather struggles to meet the demands of Hamlet and her father. Her value is
determined by their approval. When Hamlet spurns her, she kills herself.
The premise of the book is that there is a segment of the female, adolescent
population who are very uch like Ophelia. I see them at the High School in
which I work. The girls who, we are told, have been well adjusted, happy,
productive, with high aspirations. . they enter middle school years and ther
locus of control turns completely outward. Focus is on learning how to please
boys, fulfill physical stereotypes of pathological thinness, and goal
directedness disappears. Care to comment?
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| 74 responses total. |
md
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response 1 of 74:
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Feb 7 13:45 UTC 1996 |
Happens to boys, too. The majority of them, in fact, from
what I can observe.
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beeswing
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response 2 of 74:
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Feb 7 14:06 UTC 1996 |
This response has been erased.
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chelsea
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response 3 of 74:
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Feb 7 16:34 UTC 1996 |
Women, in general, embrace the roll of victim. It's always done
to us by them. We had no choice or complicity. We are what they
made us to be, poor us.
Men, in general, don't embrace the roll.
(I'll bet you a cup of coffee that the very next response will be
something along the lines of "society made us play the roll of
the victim". ;-)
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md
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response 4 of 74:
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Feb 7 20:21 UTC 1996 |
Society has made men play the role of the victim. We die younger,
get sick more often, commit suicide more often, go out and fight
stupid wars, you name it. Plus we have to wear the most uncomfortable
work clothes and do the most dangerous and exhausting jobs. We never
get to see our own children, the role of nurturer is snatched away
from us, and in return we're expected to carry our significant others
around on our shoulders, emotionally, financially and psychologically.
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chelsea
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response 5 of 74:
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Feb 7 20:43 UTC 1996 |
Try as you might, Michael, your whining can't hold a candle
to a woman's whine. Women have elevated the whine to an art form.
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otter
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response 6 of 74:
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Feb 8 01:57 UTC 1996 |
Pardon me, but seeing no smiling emoticons in #4, I assume he's serious, and
think he makes some valid points.
BTW, I am 35 years old and have *never* whined.
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beeswing
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response 7 of 74:
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Feb 8 07:59 UTC 1996 |
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md
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response 8 of 74:
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Feb 8 15:21 UTC 1996 |
Re #7: "The college degree I busted my ass for does not give me
the earning power that a man's high school diploma will." Is
that true? How does that work, exactly? A man with a high
school diploma and a woman with a college degree apply for the
same job and the man gets it and woman doesn't? That happens?
What job is it, exactly? Or, is it that a man with a high school
diploma and a woman with a college degree are working side by
side in the same job, and the man's salary is higher? Really?
What company do they work at, exactly?
Or do you mean that *on the average* roofing contractors with
high school diplomas make more money than social workers with
psych major college degrees? (Duh.)
And I *love* your statement that no one is actually taking the
"nurterer" role away from men, "it's just been more commonplace."
It's just been more commonplace! I love it! It's so...simple,
so...elegant. It had me staring into space with a dreamy smile
for a good ten minutes. Alas, if I say anything more specific
about it I'll spoil the irony. (Ironies, actually, if you count
the misspelling of "nurturer".)
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beeswing
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response 9 of 74:
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Feb 8 20:41 UTC 1996 |
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chelsea
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response 10 of 74:
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Feb 8 21:50 UTC 1996 |
(Mary waits in wild anticipation...)
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beeswing
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response 11 of 74:
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Feb 9 07:22 UTC 1996 |
And I am the reigning queen of typos. Sigh.
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remmers
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response 12 of 74:
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Feb 9 11:01 UTC 1996 |
(Re #10: Ditto...)
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aruba
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response 13 of 74:
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Feb 9 12:48 UTC 1996 |
I think Michael's point about your "role of nurturer" comment, beeswing, was
that it's not fair to bemoan the roles women are often maneuvered into without
recognizing that the same thing happens to men. I heard it said once that
even with all the changes that feminism has wrought, a woman is still judged
by her family and a man is still judged by his career. That's a little out
of date, and of course a generalization, but there's a lot of truth in it.
(At least what it says about men.) If you recognize that there are
sociological forces that influence women toward thinness and subservience,
you must also see that there are forces which push men toward being
workaholics and dominators. And as with women, there is shame for those who
don't meet the ideals. If your argument is that men are basically free
and women are basically enslaved, I'm not buying it.
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md
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response 14 of 74:
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Feb 9 16:11 UTC 1996 |
Re #9: I agree that in many fields the average pay for women is still
less than it is for men. What you said in #7, however, was: "THE
COLLEGE DEGREE I BUSTED MY ASS FOR DOES NOT GIVE ME THE EARNING POWER
THAT A MAN'S HIGH SCHOOL DIPLOMA WILL." (I'm putting it all in caps
so you'll pay attention.) I have never heard anyone say that WOMEN
WITH COLLEGE DEGREES earn less on the average than MEN WITH ONLY HIGH
SCHOOL DIPLOMAS, so I asked you for some specifics. (More caps there.
Same reason.) Well?
My point about the roofing contractor vs the social worker is that
most of the former are men and most of the latter are women. But if
you can say that no one is stopping me from being a house-husband,
then I can say that no one is stopping you from being a roofing
contractor. Which brings me once again to to your statement that no
one is actually taking the nurturer role away from men, "it's just
been more commonplace." Lots and lots of bad things have just been
more commonplace, beeswing, including everything you're opposed to as
a feminist. "It's just been more commonplace," is what a dull stupid
unthinking male chauvinist who just doesn't get it uses to explain why
women stay home and take care of the kids. Coming from a self-styled
feminist, it's *stunningly* ironic. When I said it had me staring
into space with a dreamy smile for a good ten minutes, I wasn't
joking.
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beeswing
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response 15 of 74:
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Feb 9 22:24 UTC 1996 |
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katie
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response 16 of 74:
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Feb 10 00:53 UTC 1996 |
Um, I don't buy the high school/college gender thing, either.
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popcorn
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response 17 of 74:
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Feb 10 07:31 UTC 1996 |
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abchan
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response 18 of 74:
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Feb 10 15:53 UTC 1996 |
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aaron
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response 19 of 74:
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Feb 11 18:04 UTC 1996 |
re #15: As a psych. major, you should know to put Faludi away and base your
arguments on Gilligan.
There are countless factories in the U.S. where men (and women) toil for
$5 - 6/hour, and try to support familes on that income.
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popcorn
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response 20 of 74:
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Feb 11 18:37 UTC 1996 |
This response has been erased.
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md
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response 21 of 74:
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Feb 11 21:51 UTC 1996 |
RE beeswing's latest, it is "a fact that the role of nurterer HAS gone
to women," as you say. "I said it was more commpnplace," you add, "I
did not say it was right."
What you said, beeswing, was: "And no one is taking ayway a nurterer
role... it's just been more commonplace for that to go to women, which
is unbalanced." You certainly didn't say it was right, beeswing; but
"No one's taking it away from you, it's just been more commonplace"
sounds kind of dodgy to me. Don't you hear that, too, a little?
I dunno, I'm just playing devil's advocate here anyway, as chelsea
correctly surmised. I've been in the workforce longer than you've
been alive, beeswing, and I have no illusions about the roles men and
women play, and how those roles came about.
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mta
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response 22 of 74:
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Feb 11 23:49 UTC 1996 |
Actually, if I remember right, Faludi is based in part on Gilligan's work.
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otter
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response 23 of 74:
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Feb 12 02:41 UTC 1996 |
Not to say that it doesn't happen, but I have been around for quite a few
years without the benefit of *any* formal education beyond HS and have never
encountered a problem with unequal pay. In fact, I have never known or heard
of anyone who did. Is this more a white-collar situation than blue or pink?
BTW, I manage an automotive repair facility and make exactly the same
wage/commission/bonus as every other manager in our franchise chain.
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simcha
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response 24 of 74:
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Feb 13 20:02 UTC 1996 |
A couple of comments about both sides of the argument:
(BTW, "pink collar" is a long established term)
First, stop trying to apply generalities or averages to a specific
situation. It *never* works. The general truth, that women with
a college degree make less than men with HS degrees is a documented fact
if you are talking about the whole population...not necessarily your or
my salaries. Remember, that population includes lots of men who
are at the top of their fields, while women may struggle with a
glass ceiling. It also includes women who have *chosen* a lower
paid job for more time with family. It doesn't mean that beeswing,
with a psych degree, will make less than a man with a psych degree.
BTW, a plumber with his HS degree makes more than my husband with his
two law degrees. And that's two men...
Another fact...the law allows for 12 weeks, not 2 months, of maternity
leave. Unpaid. Even for women who caan afford it, the workplace
disparages them for taking it. (I am in the middle of this now).
Men do have the role of nurterer taken away from them...a man who wants to
use vacation time to care for kids is frowned upon. He is considered
not serious about his job if he takes off for doctor's appointments,
etc. That's mom's role. My husband was denied leave to stay home
for a month when I returned to work after our 1st was born. But his
colleague was granted a month's leave to go on an overseas trip.
I think if we want to teach girls not to be victims we each need to
work with the young girls in our lives to help them. It is important
to give all children support with self esteem so when they pass through
puberty, they can return to liking themselves.
Women do have very different approaches to work, team interaction,
competition, etc. than men. Women are less comfortable, as a rule
with being singled out for praise as well as punishment. (There was
a great article in a recent Investors Business Daily on this). What
adults have to do is accept these diferences, and encourage women and
men to develop themselves in ways they are comfortable.
Simcha steps down off the soapbox.
:-)
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