response 1 of 36:

Mar 31 18:05 UTC 1995

I believe in my religion, strongly...I don't think I am submissive.

Perhaps your friend was fulfilling a wife-husband role rather than
anything to do with religion.  Religion cannot change personality.

I was  raised to think I could do/be anything I wanted, and I am
raising my daughters & son that way.  

what kind of "orthodox"?

My religion (jewish) doesn't deny women's sexuality or require
submissiveness, either sexuality or in general.  In fact, ancient
writings require a husband to be sure he "satisfies" his wife.

Does your friend think she is submissive?  Or is she doing what she
wants and that is now different from your perspective?  

My mother is disappointed cuz I would rather stay home anad keep house
w/ my kids.  She interprets that to a subordinate role.  I don't.
I have an executive level job, but find the challenges of being mommy
both greater and more satisfying than managing billion dollar 
budgets.  She sounds like you sometimes...not fond of my
increasing leanings into our religion.  But, I am doing what I want, 
given a set of choices.  I make these choices because I am happy with 
them.  My personality hasn't changed, but she refused to accept that
I liked raising kids better than a career before...and now she thinks I've
been brainwashed by my husband.  But if you asked my frinds from my
teenage years, I'm the same.

response 3 of 36:

Mar 31 21:11 UTC 1995

*gender check*  Gerald Gardner, Alexander Sanders, and Raymond Buckland
were women?  GG is the most important influence on modern Wicca, and
Alex Sanders is second or third... I disagree that Wicca is a "woman
inspired" religion.  It was taken away from the het males about 20
years ago, but it wasn't inspired by women.
*Ahh.*
That said, what mean you by "mass control"?  I've never heard
that in conjunction with Wicca, except from conservative JudeoChristian
types who assume it's just another cult.  How much do you know about
Wicca, anyway?

response 7 of 36:

Apr 1 18:55 UTC 1995

Ever been in a mob, a rally, even a dance hall? That feeling of ecstasy
that comes from being part of a group.  That is communion.  People are
vulnerable in that state and religions take advantage of that vulnerability,
that openness to suggestion.  Communion doesn't in itself imply mass
control but communion is a mechanism for mass control.

response 9 of 36:

Apr 1 20:01 UTC 1995

What puzzles me even more than why women follow the tenents of religions which
attempt to subjugate them, is why women have not insisted on changing those
aspects of the religions they follow.  

response 11 of 36:

Apr 2 22:36 UTC 1995

I am really interested in the concept of powerlessness and women.  Learned
helplessness, secondary gains from being victimized, etc.  Not in the sense 
that I am seeking to hold the victim responsible for her victimization, but
in terms of understanding why it comes about and, of course, what can be
done about it.

response 13 of 36:

Apr 3 00:44 UTC 1995

The concept of faith is a central tenet of any religion; the really 
powerful ones are the ones that prevent questioning that faith.  Bandied
about by the wrong people, very quickly those who adhere to the religion
become powerless.  Margaret Atwood's Handmaid's Tale, depicts such a 
scenario, and the rise of the religious right in North America seems to
suggest its plausibility.  I think that religious faith makes us victims,
and that as a woman, it is antithetical to my freedoms.  
I agree with chelsea that as women we must take responsibility for 
where we're going, and perhaps the first step should be to internalize,
and individualize our faith, and never again be willing to be told what
to do.  A religion of one, how interesting.
(I'm sure that's not original)

response 15 of 36:

Apr 3 05:08 UTC 1995

(Unitarianism has faith that a person doesn't have to hold a particular faith.)

Faith doesn't necessarily make one a victim, Veena.  I feel you have a very 
cynical view of religion.  What if your faith in Deity includes the concept
that They love you and want you to be happy and live as you please as long
as you let others live that way... how is that restricting?  A tenet like that
is at the heart of most religions, including Christianity, ... just because
some schmucks have screwed it up is no reason to abondon it.  Take it
back from the schmucks, I say!

response 17 of 36:

Apr 14 04:09 UTC 1995

personnally, I believe that as long as organized religion exists, we
make ourselves victims to the whims of others, after all, they who rule
wield a pretty big stick - eternal condemnation, and ostracization from
the community.  Living in North America, but having travelled to countries
that do not share the same views on liberty, I have seen religion at its worst
so that when I hear about people taling about restoring morning prayer to
schools or talking about 'family values' or banning pornography, I begin
to feel just a little bit suspicious.  I have this image of religion as
a sleeping lion, beautiful to see when tamed, but terrifying when unleashed.
As a woman,  I feel that the uncertainties of the world is preferable 
to the certainties of religion, if it is to be accompanied by free and
rational discourse. 
I'm sorry I used the word patriarchy earlier, it is a cliche ridden word
that has been grossly misused, but I was pretty irritated with my friend.
I think that we women, upon reflection, have had just as much a hand
in the manifestation of religion as men, only we were stupid enough to
lose control of it.

response 19 of 36:

Apr 16 22:05 UTC 1995

<chortle>  Just when I think life is becoming much too serious, you crack me
up with sematical nits.  Thanks, Brighn.

response 21 of 36:

May 9 15:12 UTC 1995

For the record:

Tho' I would * prefer* to be home with the kids, I am "corporate" as 
Veena puts it.  Executive/suits/etc. in fact. :(


And, have you ever heard the expression of "put 10 Jews in a room,
and you'll have a dozen opinions"?  Judaism thrives on challenging, 
questioning, and asking.  Our most respected sages all argued.

What is wrong with faith?  I have faith that the sun will set this
evening, and rise in the morning.  And why?  Because of the laws of
nature.  And how were those laws set in place?  I accept God.  And I thank
God for letting me see the sun rise without fail each day, while others
thank the Goddess, or appreciate Nature itself, etc.

I have faith, but I am not enslaved.  I have made my own decisions.  I
have found that the most observant Jews  feel empowered.  Someone cannot
observe so many do's and don't's with out choosing to live that way.  And
they feel great joy in their lives for the choices they have made.

response 23 of 36:

May 14 01:14 UTC 1995

I'm glad that you feel comfortable with your religion.  I think thatt
what you've done is you've personalized it and have taken it away
from the schmucks to whom some reference has been made.  I think that
if more women did that religion would not be so (oops) oppressive.
Unfortunatel more people tend to take the package deal, the thing 
that comes with the annoying extras.  I think that when dealing with
religion one should keep in mind caveat emptor.
I'm not sure that science is a faith.  I had this argument with my
boyfriend many moons ago and he had some good points.  He said that
the difference between science and religion (I'm paraphrasing), is that
religion says that the sun will rise tomorrow whereas science says that
based on past experience, there is a 99.999999percent chance that the 
sun will rise.  I think my boyfriend would have a field day, as a 
prospective scientist,  if the sun didn't rise (he would also be dead
but that is beside the point).