A question to women and men

Apr 4 13:40 UTC 1994

   I hope no one will object to my entering this item here in the Femme
conference, but I really can't think of a better place for it.
   A lot has been said about images of women on TV and in the movies.  To
summarize it, almost all of the women in the media are beautiful and
glamorous, and this does a lot of damage to the confidence of real-life
women, leading (for one thing) to eating disorders.  It's also a fact that
twice as many women go through a major depression in their lives than do men.
   Not long ago I was thinking about this problem, and it occurred to me
that there was a similar phenomenon going on with men in the media,
although it is subtler, so you can't hold up a picture of it and say
"*This* is what I mean!" I think that inasmuch as women are often
portrayed as beautiful, men are almost always portrayed as _strong_.  At
least, heroes are.  (I don't mean physically strong, necessarily, but
strong in some way; often it involves protecting or saving a heroine.)
Now, maybe that's just a part of being a hero, you might argue.  And maybe
it is.  But my question is, might this not do as much damage to men's
confidence as the portrayal of beautiful women does to real-life women? 
   Perhaps we also ought to ask just how meaningful these stereotypes are.
A lot of the attraction of being beautiful or strong is that it seems to
be the way people in the media attract members of the opposite sex.  Is
this true in real life too?  What I'd particularly like to know is:  Are
most women really drawn to strong men?

response 2 of 31:

Apr 6 02:53 UTC 1994

   A very candid and thoughtful response.  I guess it's that word confident
that gets me.  How can one be both confident and honest?  A stereotypical
complaint of women about men is that they won't admit when they're lost
and won't ask for help whn they need it.  I don't like asking for help,
probably because if I do I feel that I'm opening myself up to ridicule.
I see a correlation there between my fear of ridicule and the "societal
expectation" that men should be confident.

response 4 of 31:

Apr 7 11:49 UTC 1994

Yes.  Which areas?

response 6 of 31:

Apr 8 16:49 UTC 1994

Jason, why are women ultimately in control?  Don't you have the same rights
to establish how you feel about the relationship and to end it if you
feel it's appropriate?
as far as letting women know about items in your basic nature it's a three
step process:
1) Define for yourself, what these things are about yourself.  You can't
express things that you're no entirely clear on.

2) Tell her honestly and clearly what's on your mind.  I admire forthrightness
in a man.

3) Show her by actions.  They always speak louder than words.  

oh, and remember to listen closely for feedback.  You might not get it right
aay.  I hope this helps.

response 8 of 31:

Apr 13 17:54 UTC 1994

getting off that tangeant...I  think you are right
to a point.  We are all suposed to look beyond a woman's
beauty, but men  are still supposed to be
strong.  One question? Do you refer to physical, emotional,
or economic strength?  Sorry
about the choppy lines, having problems...

response 12 of 31:

Jul 19 14:49 UTC 1994

The biggest moneymaker of all time in the media is Mr. Arnold 
Schwartznegger.  The man can't act his way out of a cardboard box;
he still can't speak English fluently, after years in this country.
He is popular for two reasons:  stage presence, and biceps the size
of oil barrels.  A review of Running Man (I believe, maybe Total
Recall) by a female reviewer (the same one in the Free Press that
didn't like Croc Dundee II because the star had left his wife for the other
star) complained that we didn't get to see Arnie shirtless, so the movie
was no good.
Clearly, a concrete example of physical strength being held up as
a very positive thing in men.

How do I feel about that?  Eh.  I'm happy that an Austrian immigrant was
able to realize the American dream in an age that so few people are.
I'm more irritated by people I know personally putting me down for my
weight and lack of physical fitness  (and I'm not that heavy).  I was
concerned for a coworker who wanted to take steriods because he wanted to
bulk up for the girls.  Small potatoes stuff, compared to what thewomen
in this country have to go through.  Not that it doesn't hurt -- it does.
But I also remember that someone not so attractive or bulky (i.e. Bruce
Willis) played a similar role and was successful at it.  That someone
like Bruce Willis could be in the league of Sly and Arnie is a positive thing.

I'll stop woolgathering now...  The point is, I've seen the strength=manliness
thing in the media.  I read reviews of Batman that complained about his 
feelings.  I don't agree that self-sufficiency is a good thing for everyone;
to quote REM, everybody hurts sometimes, and strength to the point of
callousness or iron-willedness is not a positive thing.  I try to ignore it,
but, yes,  Mark, it does bother me.

response 16 of 31:

Apr 21 00:02 UTC 1995

Was the original question:  Are men affected by the "macho" stereotype 
much like women are affected by the "beauty" stereotype?

If so, my $.02 worth says yes, but to a much lower degree of intensity.  I 
believe that both stereotypes have a complement, or belief about those members
not meeting the standard.  The women not in the "beauty" template are treated
more negatively than the men out of the "macho" image.  

response 18 of 31:

May 2 06:06 UTC 1995

Now linked to homme (at aruba's request)

response 20 of 31:

May 2 16:31 UTC 1995

My first reaction to the sitcom doctor scenario was, no, i couldn't see it
with a "strong" female and a passive male.

Then it occurred to me:  that's exactly how Valerie and I would act.
I would sit there, passively accepting the wait, and Valerie would rip
in, tell the doctor that we're the customers, and that we're tired of
being ignored, etc etc etc.  That other people are waiting is irrelevant:
if the doctor has arranged to meet with us at a specific time, the fact
that he overbooked himself and has other patients is irrelevant.  No,
Valerie is not *usually* that pushy, but if we're waiting for important
yes-or-no news, then, yes, she does act like that.

In her aggressiveness, she balances my passivity, so that is part of what
I love about her.  

response 22 of 31:

May 3 01:58 UTC 1995

Aw, valerie, wouldn't YOU yell at my doctors?
<brighn flutters eyebrows>

response 24 of 31:

May 4 21:51 UTC 1995

It depends on how literally I should take "grabs the doctor" and
"forces him ..."  Mindless tactlessness is a turnoff.  Someone
speaking on my behalf more forcefully and convincingly than I
have been able to speak for myself, but still within the bounds
of courtesy, has some definite attraction.
I don't know anything about sitcom males of the '90s, but I can
imagine the genders being reversed if the woman had something like
special medical expertise.