response 1 of 62:

Oct 2 19:21 UTC 1997

I suppose the other reason for considering this would be to stop sending
so much salt down the drains.  But for $400, I'd want some kind of feeling
that this type of product would work.

response 3 of 62:

Oct 3 12:11 UTC 1997

I'd echo i's comments on being very cautious.  I've seen these things too
and often in installations that should be beyond the reach of snake-oil
salesmen.  I wonder, though, if they aren't pushing the capabilities of
these devices.  I have a feeling that I understand the simple chemistry
behind NaCl softeners, but the chemistry behind these electronic devices
eludes me.  Perhaps Rane can shed some light on this?  I wouldn't buy
one unless you are absolutely sure about what it does, how it does it,
how much electricity it costs to run, etc.
 
You may also want to look at your softener and plumbing.  Some softeners
are more efficient than others.  How does yours rate?  Does everything
on the softened side of your softened need to be softened?  Can some
stuff be moved to the non-softened side?  (Hose bibs, etc.)

response 5 of 62:

Oct 6 13:49 UTC 1997

So, is it your professtional opinion that this couldn't possible work
as claimed?  Here's a bit more from the brochure.  If you think he's BS'ing
this, let me know.  The owner is willing to converse (although fairly
sarcastically) via e-mail about this.
 
How dos it work?

Dissolved calcium is what makes your water hard.  If forms a crystal called
calcite, which has a high molecular surface charge.  think of it as being
(electrically) sticky.  It sticks to soaps, and makes scum.  It sticks to the
inside of your pipes and forms scale.  It sticks to your bathroom fixtures and
gets crusty.  When calcite passes through the ScaleBan's electronic field, it
changes to another crystal called aragonite.  It's still dissolved calcium, but
this form is not "sticky".  So the water is free to do what it does best -- act
as the universal solvent.  The calcium just goes along for the ride.

(and later)

The ScaleBan's electronic signal has special frequencies and harmonics (this 
is the patented part) which convert 100% of the calcite to aragonite,
regardless of the flow rate.

If I remember, I'll bring in the "full set" of documentation about this
which has a "more detailed explanation, with chemical equations and 
everything!"

response 7 of 62:

Oct 6 15:58 UTC 1997

The science in #5 is faulty.

The calcium in solution is not in any "crystal structure". It is only when
it precipitates that a crystal structure is adopted. 

Calcite does not occur in solution. It dissolves as separate calcium and
carbonate ions. When precipitated, both calcite and aragonite have surface
charges, though nothing unusual or particularly different between them. The
soap *scum" is due to the fact that most fatty acid soaps of calcium are
insoluble, which is an entirely different reaction than the precipitation
of calcite or aragonite.

"Lime" is soluble, but precipitated calcite or aragonite are both white, so
I don't think of them as "stains". If you wish to, I don't mind :)

The science offered by the ScaleBan's literature is pseudo-science. It uses
words from chemistry and physics, but describes phenomena that do not occur.

response 9 of 62:

Nov 25 19:52 UTC 1997

To reopen this item:  With the prodding of my wife, we ordered one of these
devices and have had it installed for the past 50 days or so.

In general, the behavior of the water system is pretty much what the
literature described it would be -- the water got "super hard" for a few
days -- about a week, then gradually got better.  Around the 30-day mark,
there seemed to be a significant "improvement" in "latherability" of soap.
 
Are we going to keep this after the 90 day "return for free" policy?  We'll
see at that time.  On a "subjective" basis, I think the soaps could lather
"better", but my wife and the friend who has been staying with us for a
while thinks things are pretty decent now.  And, I'm not lugging around
salt bags any more.
 
Is it really "descaling" my pipes?  To be honest, I have no clue.  Part of
the testing will be how my in-laws react to the shower when they visit this
holiday.  I haven't showered in "soft" or "normal" water myself in 5 months,
so I have no real comparison other than "softened" vs. "ScaleBaned", so
it will be interesting to see what they think.
 
Would it be different if we had this completely *off* (ie, no "ScaleBan",
at all)?  That will be the next test that will really determine whether or
not we keep this.

Just FYI...

response 11 of 62:

Nov 26 16:16 UTC 1997

That's what makes this difficult to judge.  Because everything is such a
closed system, you have to take it on faith that it's working, I guess,
depending on the behavior of the water.  I've since drained the water tank
after around the 30-day mark and a bunch of crap came out, but that might
have happened anyway.

response 13 of 62:

Dec 2 18:26 UTC 1997

Well, certainly, *something* visible *is* happening with this:  There's now
a white "powder residue" in the sinks that wasn't there before and 
dishwashed glasses sometimes are  cloudy (but this may be due to the fact
that we don't know the correct amount of dishwashing detergent to use now.)
 
And, certainly, there was a noticeable difference in the water behavior
between initally installing the unit and today, so, again, I'm left with
the feeling that *something* has happened to the water system over the past
60 days.
 
I'll ask the owner what he thinks I should "see" if I turn the unit off and
see if that happens.  I should be able to report something after another 
week or so...

response 15 of 62:

Dec 3 21:26 UTC 1997

The product's literature says that as it's "redissolving" the scale, the 
water would get "harder".  Once the unit has done it's job (in theory) to
remove the built-up scale from the pipes, then the water should get better,
right?
 
The owner said:  "Here's the mechanism: natural soaps react
with dissolved calcium, creating scums. Once the water is "treated" the
scums stop ... except that you are putting treated water thru cruddy
piping, thus re-hardening the treated water. Once the pipes are
descaled, the re-hardening stops, AND the same soaps now bubble muuch
better."
 

I've still got a month and plan on doing some further testing before I make
any final decisions on this.  As of today, I'm not completely convinced
that this is a hoax because things are doing what he's said they would (so
far.)

response 17 of 62:

Dec 10 18:32 UTC 1997

The owners assertation is that the water coming into the system is already
"hard", the device modifies the water, then the "modified" water reacts
with the scale on the pipes and "redissolves" the scale, thus creating 
more "hard" water as it comes out of the pipe.  Once all the scale is
dissolved from the pipes, then the water coming out would only be the
"treated" water.
 
The *concept* seems clear.  Whether or not it's functional is what I'm
trying to determine.
 
However, I've done some tests over the last week to see what my water is
like now.  In retrospect, I should have done these tests prior to installing
the unit, but there you go...
 
With the unit on, I measured a specific amount of water into a jar, added
two drops of Palmolive and shook the jar.  I then did this after having the
unit off for 3 days.  Then I did it again after turning the unit back on
for another 3 days.  Each time, the amount of "suds" was approximately the
same "height" in the jar and appeared to be of the same consistancy.
 
Now, we took this to mean one of two things:  (1) my pipes are descaled or
(2) the unit does nothing.
 
However, what keeps me from firmly saying "this does nothing" is that for
the first 30 days of having this unit on, there *was* a distinct difference
between the behavior of soaps in the bath vs. the behavior today.  And that
the water really was "super hard" for the first 5 days when we first
installed the unit.  
 
Also, the type of "deposits" left behind on the shower stall seem to clean
easier than before.
 
I've still got approximately 30 days to experiment with this.  I'm still
trying to figure out a non-electron-microscope-involving way of determining
either if my pipes are descaled as the owner said they should be after time
or if my pipes are *still* scaled and this unit does nothing.  If only
there was a way to "pop the top" on the water heater...
 
Oh, and the owner *did* provide a list of technical references related to
this with such titles as "Reduction of Soluable Mineral Concentrations in
CaSO4 Saturated Water Using a Magnetic Field" and "Corrostion and Deposit
Control in Alkaline Cooling Water Using Magenetic Water Treatment at
Amoco's Largest Refinery" dated from 1984 through 1995.  If I can remember
how to look up abstracts, I'll do that to see what they say.

response 19 of 62:

Dec 11 12:18 UTC 1997

Your water comes into the house hard.  When you first installed the unit
the water came out of your faucets super hard.  This suggest to me that
this is a descaler, not a softener.  Part of me also wonders if you are
sacrificing copper pipe, instead of salt, for soft water?
 
The well driller that putin my well dowsed it.  It's a well-fist site
and my neighbor had four dry holes before his well driller gave up.  He
had the driller I hired come in and he found water 6 ft. from one of the
previous holes on his first try.  The well he sunk for me is 50 ft. deep
and does 50 gpm.  Dowsing doesn't work for me so I don't belive in it.
However, if one driller has a better reputation for finding water in a
well-fist site, I'll go with them.  Dry holes aint cheap and I certainly
can not complain about my well!  (I should mount a fire plug on it ;-)

response 21 of 62:

Dec 16 04:34 UTC 1997

The abstract for the Kronenberg article is at
http://generalenv.com/IEEEExperimentalEvidence.html
The article is chemical in nature (minearls, ions, etc), but published
in IEEE. There is an "order now!" link on the same page. He seems to 
have made his career out of the promotion of magnetic treatment of
water. Obtaining the articles would take some running around UM libraries.
You have the greatest potential "investment" in this, Steve. If you
dug up copies of all the articles, I would review and comment on them.

What with all the pseudo-scientiftic mumbo-jumbo I have seen so far, I
have to class with device with the pills the doctor sold to determine
the sex of one's children - blue pills would make boys, and pink pills
would make girls - and he offered a MONEY BACK GUARANTEE!

response 23 of 62:

Dec 17 17:11 UTC 1997

He is in a minor college and promotes himself with allusions to his
early association in Europe with big names in physics and the abstract
for the three page article states one experiment with results that only
he could attribute significance in a field that has a vast and
contradictory literature.......I could go on. These are just all
"smoking guns". Get the article, and I will dig deeper.