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| Author |
Message |
rcurl
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The Sewer Item
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Jan 19 05:31 UTC 1997 |
YUCH!
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| 55 responses total. |
rcurl
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response 1 of 55:
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Jan 19 05:46 UTC 1997 |
We have foam from our washing machine coming back up the clean-out port in
the basement. This was an iron pipe with an iron screwed-in plug, but when
we had it reamed out once, it was totally rusted together, so it was
broken out down maybe 6 inches, and now there is just a plastic plug
sitting in the pipe end (which is in concrete). Our sewer line is ca. 60
feet to the main so foam has a hard time getting through it, and it backs
up around the ill-fitting plug, mounds on the basement flow around the
port, and then drains off to a floor drain. I'd like ideas for sealing
this port in a manner that would also make opening relatively easy for any
time it needs reaming. I have thought of several ways:
1. Grease the sides of the hole and pour it full with plaster or concrete
(on top of the plastic plug). This would be broken out when it has to be
opened again.
2. Obtain a short piece of plastic sewer pipe end with female threads and
set this in (with epoxy?), and use the threaded plug to get a good seal.
However, if it ever needs cleaning, I'm afraid the power snake would make
mincemeat of the plastic.
3. Shove a largish foam-rubber ball down the cleanout opening - maybe with
a cord through it for removal.
Any other ideas?
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scott
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response 2 of 55:
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Jan 19 14:43 UTC 1997 |
The power snake won't mess up the first few inches of pipe, so plastic should
be fine.
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mcpoz
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response 3 of 55:
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Jan 19 15:48 UTC 1997 |
Rane, I am not clear as to your comment about the pipe being "broken out down
maybe 6 inches . . " One thing you could do is to cut the pipe cleanly and
splice a new pipe above it. They make rubber splicing fixtures which are
encased in stainless steel band clamps for this purpose. From the splice,
you could replace the cleanout and re-join it to the existing plumbing. The
replacement pipe could be in pvc.
In any case, if you are getting foam, you have the potential of getting lethal
fumes.
btw, if you want to cut black iron sewer pipe, rent a professional pipecutter,
you can't hacksaw that stuff. The pipe cutter has a chain with carbide wheel
inserts and a racheting device to increase the force with which the carbide
inserts press into the circumferrence of the pipe. When it breaks, it makes
a very loud "pop" and the cut is neat and square.
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rcurl
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response 4 of 55:
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Jan 19 19:09 UTC 1997 |
The cast iron street el is buried in the concrete floor. It was originally
installed so the plug was flush with the floor. However this was all
excavated down about six inches when they had to get the plug out.Some of
the pipe end broke off too. Now the accessible end of the pipe is
surrounded by concrete. I don't want to excavate more concrete (it will
probably go into earth, actually) to expose enough pipe to put on a
collar.
Doesn't the whole power-snake turn when reaming a sewer line? This tuning
against the side of a plastic pipe end would abrade it, and certainly
would muck up threads.
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scott
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response 5 of 55:
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Jan 19 19:42 UTC 1997 |
Well, couldn't you fabricate some sort of "collar" that the snake runs thru?
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rcurl
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response 6 of 55:
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Jan 19 19:53 UTC 1997 |
True (if not easy) - good idea that reopens that option.
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scott
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response 7 of 55:
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Jan 19 21:45 UTC 1997 |
Just take some sheet metal (how about some stovepipe?), make a cylinder with
some of the metal on one end of the cylinder folded out to keep it from
falling in?
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n8nxf
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response 8 of 55:
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Jan 20 02:47 UTC 1997 |
When gluing plastic pipe, use the solvent/adhesive stuff you can get for the
purpose at most hardware stores. Don't use epoxy. If the epoxy doesn't
dissolve the plastic slightly, it won't hang on very well.
I've also seen king-size soda bottle stoppers with a big toggle handle on top.
When the handle is flipped it compresses the rubber puck in the pipe, creating
a seal. Would that work for what your trying to do? How about a Nerff ball?
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rcurl
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response 9 of 55:
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Jan 20 07:42 UTC 1997 |
I found something like that toggle thingy at HQ this afternoon. A rubber ring
is expanded between two tapered plates as a wingnut is tightened. I have to
clear out some bits of concrete that still get in the way before I can give
it a test. (Once I get this thing sealed, though, I lose my drain for my
basement dehumidifier....one darn thing after 'nuther.)
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n8nxf
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response 10 of 55:
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Jan 20 14:13 UTC 1997 |
Perhaps you could fabricate some sort of "U" shaped tube into your plug.
It wouldn't have to be large dia. tubing since the output of your
dehumidifier is low, (3/8" Cu pipe?) and water in the bottom of the trap
would prevent gases (and washer foam) from getting out.
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rcurl
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response 11 of 55:
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Jan 20 19:44 UTC 1997 |
I will consider that, vs just checking the dehumidifier and emptying it when
it is too full.
I have installed the wing-nut thingy, after wire-brushing off the rust and
concrete from the end of the pipe. The 4-inch pipe plug just fits. I put
plumber's putty in the remaining threads and under the top plate flange,
for a good seal. NOW...to watch where the foam comes out next... 8^{.
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rcurl
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response 12 of 55:
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Jan 21 19:42 UTC 1997 |
I have had problems with roots growing into our sewer line (the same one
as above) and causing backup. Last July I put 8 ounces of copper sulfate
down the sewer and let it "soak" overnight. I intend to repeat the
application again in the spring. Some questions about the procedure:
1. Copper sulfate is sold around town for this use, but I would not think
it is too good for the sludge from the sewage treatment plant - or maybe a
little is a good thing (?). Anyone know whether it is even allowed to be
used?
2. What are alternative treatments that don't use copper?
3. Copper sulfate reacts with iron pipe to dissolve some iron and deposit
some copper - not as a 'plate' but as a loose copper powder. This corrodes
the pipe, so one doesn't want to do this too often. How often is too
often?
4. I know copper is toxic to plant roots, but is it toxic to the trees
putting down the roots? Has anyone ever harmed a tree by using copper
sulfate in their sewer line?
5. Does it work primarily by direct contact with the roots that get into
the line, or does it leak out into the surrounding soil (via the gaps
through which roots entered), and work there?
6. How long is a treatment effective?
7. Presuming that two treatments per year will be used - what are the
optimum dates for those applications? When are the roots most active in
extending themselves and seeking out moisture sources?
8. What is the optimum method of application? The instructions on ROOTO
say to use 8 ounces and flush into the line with 5 gallons of water. Since
our sewer line is long, I made two consecutive applications of 4 ounces,
flushing each with 2.5 gallons of water. I left it like that for at least
a few hours. (The instructions say to "not allow Rooto...to remain in
contact with metal for any length of time", but "any length" is not
defined.)
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n8nxf
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response 13 of 55:
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Jan 21 21:27 UTC 1997 |
Good questions. I don't know the answers but I have heard that you can
kill a tree by driving copper tacks around the trunks circumference.
(BTW, I have the same problem with my sewer line out to the street.)
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mcpoz
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response 14 of 55:
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Jan 22 00:04 UTC 1997 |
Rane, the way copper sulfate acts is to inhibit photosynthesis. Thus it will
kill the plant by robbing it of its ability to produce food. I don't think
it has any direct short term effect on the roots. I think the
proprietary
stuff sold kills roots locally, but I don't know what this stuff is.
As for sewage treatment, I know most firms who plate copper are asked by the
city to put in special treatment to precipitate out metals before release of
their effluent to the city. Some cities which have "tertiary" treatment of
sewage, do not make this request, but I do not know what treatment level Ann
Arbor has.
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rcurl
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response 15 of 55:
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Jan 22 08:02 UTC 1997 |
ROOTO and all the other brands list the contents as copper sulfate
(pentahydrate). There is no warning on the bottle about affecting plants
growing in the vicinity. There is a warning about toxicity to aquatic
organisms (from bacteria to fish). Copper is an essential mineral and there
are diseases due to copper deficiency. Perhaps the low concentrations that
result from domestic use are not a problem for a sewage treatment plant
(steady discharge from a plating factory would be). I haven't found anything
yet on its toxicity (or essentiallity) to plant. (Sounds like a decent Science
Fair project!)
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mcpoz
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response 16 of 55:
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Jan 23 02:31 UTC 1997 |
I used to work in a powder metal (Iron) facility and word got around that the
powdered iron worked wonders on the yard and garden. One guy smuggled a bunch
of it out that had 3% Copper in it and tossed it liberally around his yard.
It was completely defoliated within a short time. (I never heard if it ever
grew back).
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rcurl
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response 17 of 55:
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Jan 23 08:15 UTC 1997 |
There must have been something else in it besides iron and copper. However
the oxidation of iron produces a somewhat alkaline mixture, which might be
deleterious to plants.
I have now found that copper is an essential plant nutrient also. In both
animals and plants it serves as the metal in some enzymes. I recall that
some marine creature has copper as the metal in its green blood cells.
Copper is less toxic than I had been thinking. Incidentally, it doesn't
just interfer with photosynthesis (if it does that) - copper sulfate is
especially toxic to fungi and bacteria, neither of which engage in
photosynthesis.
But, too much of anything is a bad thing....and it does kill tree roots
-somehow.
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mcpoz
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response 18 of 55:
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Jan 24 01:14 UTC 1997 |
what ever you say, Rane.
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robh
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response 19 of 55:
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Jan 24 19:59 UTC 1997 |
This item has been linked from Dwellings 11 to Intro 144.
Type "join dwellings" at the Ok: prompt for discussion of
sewers, and other things one finds in one's abode.
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mcpoz
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response 20 of 55:
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Jan 25 19:49 UTC 1997 |
Well, I was wrong. Copper is essential in photosynthesis and there are plenty
of articles about copper deficiency in food crops. Also, there are articles
about copper fertilizers (must be the blue (copper sulfate) in Mir-acid).
Also, a web search can find articles about copper toxicity of plants and
poisining of aquatic weeds with copper sulfate, but I did not see anything
about the mechanism of toxicity.
My experience with the powder metal was that people who (stole) iron and put
it on their plants had rapid dark green growth. Those who mistakenly had the
mixture with copper had plant death. The only other ingredients were graphite
and sodium stearate. All materials were "flour-like" particle size.
(Copper is part of the photosynthetic reaction using an enzyme called
cyanoplastin as part of a reaction mechanism to transfer electrons)
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rcurl
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response 21 of 55:
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Jan 26 07:53 UTC 1997 |
Well no, you weren't wrong..you agreed with me in #18 ;->
So, when is the propitious moment to send CuSO4 down the sewer line?
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mcpoz
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response 22 of 55:
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Jan 26 14:44 UTC 1997 |
There were several warnings about CuSO4 regarding it's toxicity to fish. This
was dependent on the alkalinity of the water.
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rcurl
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response 23 of 55:
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Jan 26 22:09 UTC 1997 |
By the time the copper reaches the treatment plant it would be converted to
the *very* insoluble copper sulfide, and incorporated into the sludge. Maybe
this is why they don't worry about it affecting the plant operation.
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rcurl
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response 24 of 55:
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Jan 29 18:11 UTC 1997 |
Does anyone know of a "check valve" for a basement floor drain? In 1994 our
basement was flooded 16" deep in sewage when the streetsewer backed up
(augmented by a sudden heavy spring rainstorm). We haven't forgotten this
incident! If it were to happen again, the basement floor drain would be where
it would come in. I am thinking of installing a check valve in the drain, so
an interior flood would drain, but liquid could not back up. Say, a rubber
ball that hangs below a smaller pipe, and floats up and seals the pipe if
a backup occurs. Any ideas?
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