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remmers
Supreme Court Hears Oral Arguments on CDA Mark Unseen   Mar 21 14:04 UTC 1997

Continuing the discussion of the Communications Decency Act
(CDA) from the previous edition of Agora...

There was a series of recent postings about the CDA on the
Cyberspace Law mailing list, an informational list written by
lawyers and addressed to non-lawyers. The last of these
is their report on the Supreme Court hearing held on March 19.
I'll reproduce that here. Their prediction is that the
government presented a weak case and the statute will be found
unconstitutional. Of course, we won't know for sure until the
Court hands down a decision, probably in July.

The complete series of CDA postings is in the directory
/a/r/e/remmers/www - or if you're reading this via backtalk,
simply click on

        http://grex.cyberspace.org/~remmers/

They give an interesting and clear summary of the legal issues
involved.
55 responses total.
remmers
response 1 of 55: Mark Unseen   Mar 21 14:06 UTC 1997

               CYBERSPACE LAW FOR NON-LAWYERS

             Topic: CONTENT REGULATION: THE CDA

              (Number 6 of 6 on the topic CDA)

                       E-Mail Number: 76

                  Date Posted: 19 March 1997

                   *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *  *

     CONTENT REGULATION AND THE COMMUNICATIONS DECENCY ACT OF 1996

     MESSAGE 6 of 6:  The CDA:  We Report from the Supreme Court

     We thought we'd give you a flavor of the argument at the Supreme
     Court Wednesday, on the CDA.  Two of your three professors were
     there.  Here's a brief account -- and keep in mind: the Supreme
     Court does not allow visitors to take notes at the argument, so
     there may be some errors or omissions in what follows due to our
     faulty memories.

     The Government's Argument:

     Two lessons ago, we sketched for you what we believed was the
     government's strongest case.  This was the zoning argument -- that
     the CDA simply attempted to zone porn in cyberspace to a place
     where kids couldn't get access.  On Wednesday, however, the
     government apparently forgot that argument.  The case was argued
     not by the Solicitor General (Walter Dellinger), but by one of his
     primary deputies, Seth Waxman.

     Waxman gave the weakest argument imaginable.  He began with
     something about the threat that indecency presented on the
     Internet.  On this issue (for those who believe that this is the
     problem) he was ok.  The Internet threatens, he argued, to make
     ineffective all the real space regulation of indecency, because in
     cyberspace, as it is just now, any kid can get access to an
     unlimited amount of pornography.

     But then, rather than shifting into the zoning argument,
     mysteriously, Waxman began to talk about the weakest part of his
     case:  the definition of indecency.  His claim was essentially
     this:  That it would be only a minor burden for publishers to
     screen out indecency.

     That was ok as far as it went, but Waxman gave as his first real
     space example the example of a library.  The Carnegie Library.  In
     the court below, the Carnegie Library said that they were concerned
     because they wanted to put their catalog on the Web.  But parts of
     their catalog might be considered indecent, and hence the library
     would face the threat of punishment unless it could find a way to
     exclude the indecent material from the online catalog.

     Bizarrely, Waxman offered this to the Justices, as an example of
     how the burden of the CDA would not be too great.  Said Waxman: it
     wouldn't take a very sophisticated software program to find the
     indecent card catalog entries, and exclude them.  That may be
     right, but it set an extremely weird tone for the rest of the
     argument.  In fact, we don't ordinarily think about libraries
     segregating material based on whether the material is indecent.
     And this first weird example seemed to procreate and simply inspire
     more weird examples.

     Justice Breyer asked whether Congress could declare indecent
     telephone conversations between high school students criminal.
     Imagine, Breyer said, high school students discussing their sexual
     exploits.  ("This has been known to happen," Breyer joked.)  Could
     Congress make that speech criminal?  Waxman didn't have a clear
     answer.  That resulted in the Justices proposing even more extreme
     examples for the government attorney's consideration:  What if a
     parent made indecent material available to his or her child?
     Would that be a criminal offense?  Again, Waxman had no clear
     answer.  Sometimes that would be child abuse, Waxman said, but if
     the Court didn't think Congress could regulate such speech, then
     it could narrow the statute (that is, the Court could read it in
     a narrow way) so it would not cover cases such as this.

     In the end, Waxman's mistake was to make the statute seem like a
     kind of regulation we haven't seen before.  The Justices were
     already unsure about just what the Internet is.  Waxman made them
     even more unsure about the legitimacy of regulating it, given how
     weird and different this regulation seemed.  Rather than make the
     Justices feel that this was just real space regulation applied in
     cyberspace, he made the Justices feel that this was a kind of
     invasiveness and censorship that real space regulation has never
     seen.  He failed, in our minds, to make the case for the CDA
     plausible, let alone convincing.  And we doubt whether more than
     three justices accepted his argument.

     The Plaintiffs' Argument:

     Bruce Ennis argued the case for the plaintiffs (the ACLU, the
     American Library Association, and the other organizations and
     individuals who had challenged the constitutionality of the CDA).
     He first responded to the government's argument that information
     providers can simply implement "adult verification" devices so as
     to comply with the statute.  Ennis pointed out that while that might
     be true for some (though not all) *Web sites*, the Web is only a small
     part of "cyberspace."

     Newsgroups, chat rooms, listservers and the like, Ennis argued, are
     where most of the conversation on the Internet actually takes place,
     and in those forums it is simply impossible for anyone to know
     whether he or she is "making available" indecent information to
     someone under the age of 18.  As a result, the only way to comply
     with the statute in those contexts is to refrain entirely from
     communicating about "indecent" subjects.   But that, of course, sweeps
     too broadly -- adults have a constitutionally protected right to such
communication, and the statute would thus "chill" protected speech.
     It was an effective rebuttal to a significant portion of the
     government's presentation.

     [During this colloquy, Justice Scalia asked a question to the
     effect:  "Why can't we just channel all communication on the Internet
     onto the World Wide Web?"  One can never be sure that Justice Scalia
     is not just playing devil's advocate when he asks outrageous questions
     like this, but we noticed that several of America Online's lawyers
     visibly blanched at the suggestion that they simply fold up their
     tent and go away!]

     And even for the Web, Ennis argued that adult verification schemes
     are "prohibitively expensive."  There was some skepticism on the
     part of some Justices (especially Scalia and Rehnquist) about this,
     but Ennis vigorously pressed the points that (a) for many Web sites
     (e.g., those hosted by commercial online service providers like
     America Online or Compuserve) the verification schemes relying on
     the use of CGI scripts cannot now be utilized, and (b) that other Web
     sites being used for non-commercial purposes would find such schemes
     financially burdensome in the extreme.

     Ennis also spent some time following up some of the hypotheticals
     that the Justices had been developing during the government's
     presentation.  In particular, he pointed out that not only, as
     Justice Breyer had suggested, would a parent be *criminally*
     liable under the CDA if the parent were viewing "indecent"
     material with his or her 17 year old child looking on, but also
     that an e-mail from parent to child discussing, say, safe sex
     techniques might similarly subject the parent to criminal
     prosecution.

     Ennis also tried -- somewhat less successfully, we think -- to
     suggest that the statute would simply be ineffective at
     controlling the exposure of minors to indecent material, because
     of the large amount of material available on the Internet from
     foreign sources.  Again, Justices Rehnquist and Scalia found this
     unpersuasive -- so we can only shut down 50% of the dirty
     bookstores, Scalia asked, does that make the statute
     unconstitutional?

     Finally, Ennis returned to the major theme developed in the briefs:
     that there are "less restrictive alternatives" to accomplishing the
     government's goals here than by implementing the CDA, namely the
     parental control filters that already are in place on the major
     online services or those available from such providers as SurfWatch,
     Net Nanny, and the like.  What, one of the Justices asked, about
     children who might not be supervised by parents at all?  Doesn't the
     statute help to protect those children from this material in a way
     that no other form of protection can?  Perhaps, Ennis conceded -- but
     the cost to society is simply too high to permit the government to
     proceed in this manner.

                     *************************

     So there it is.   In our view, the Justices appeared to be
     sympathetic to the plaintiffs' arguments attacking the CDA, with
     perhaps 2 or 3 exceptions -- but handicapping the Supreme Court from the
     conduct of the Justices at oral argument is a notoriously difficult task
     (as is said regarding the weather in many places -- "only fools and
     newcomers try to predict"), and we'll all just have to wait until the
     opinion is released (some time before the July Court recess) to see
     where they really stand.

     So, our final view on the CDA is this:  the government had two very
     difficult hurdles to overcome.  It had to show that the statute could be
     narrowed to properly regulated speech.  And it had to show that the
     burden of its zoning provisions for that properly regulated speech were
     not too severe.  As we have explained, if it had done the first, at
     least one of us believes it could have done the second.  But none of us
     believe the government came close to doing the first.  We all believe
     the statute is, and will be, held to be unconstitutional.


             * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
                              authors:

             Larry Lessig    David Post    Eugene Volokh

             * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *


     Cyberspace-Law for Non-Lawyers is presented by the
     Cyberspace Law Institute (http://www.cli.org) and
     Social Science Electronic Publishing (http://www.ssrn.com).

krj
response 2 of 55: Mark Unseen   Mar 21 15:51 UTC 1997

The authors of the above are lawyers, and I'm sure they can read nuances
into the questioning which I can't.  I was much less optimistic after 
reading the transcript of the hearing at the ACLU web site.
 
(Also, since they were present, they may have caught humor where it 
was lost in the transcript.)
 
When I have time I want to post just a few excerpts -- mostly from 
the justices questioning -- which were either amazingly scary or 
amazingly clueless...
richard
response 3 of 55: Mark Unseen   Mar 21 17:27 UTC 1997

This response has been erased.

other
response 4 of 55: Mark Unseen   Mar 22 05:54 UTC 1997

hey, no censorshi[on the censorship item!
polygon
response 5 of 55: Mark Unseen   Mar 22 18:10 UTC 1997

Re 2.  Yes, definitely, do post those excerpts!

Earlier, I was warning everyone not to count on the Supreme Court to
overturn the CDA.  But now, based on other recent cases, what we know
about the Justices, and even the comments at oral argument (the current
justices are far less cryptic about their leanings during oral argument
than was traditional), I am optimistic about the outcome.
richard
response 6 of 55: Mark Unseen   Mar 22 18:22 UTC 1997

Here's how I see the Supreme Court seeing it:

Scalia, Rehnquist, Thomas will certainly vote for CDA

Kennedy, Ginsberg, Breyer almost certainly will vote against CDA

So the decision will lie with the other three justices...Stevens, 
Souter, and O'Connor.  I was encouraged by the remarks O'connor made 
during arguments.  I think she is leaning towards voting against it.

So it could still go either way, but Souter and Stevens represent the 
middle of the political spectrum and are more likely than most of the 
others to judge this on technical, rather than philisophical merits.  
I'm going to be optimistic and say that both will not find reason enough 
to overturn the lower courts.

Prediction:  The lower court ruling declaring CDA unconstitutional will 
be upheld by a vote of 6-3.
valerie
response 7 of 55: Mark Unseen   Mar 22 22:59 UTC 1997

This response has been erased.

polygon
response 8 of 55: Mark Unseen   Mar 23 00:20 UTC 1997

Re 6.  Normally the "liberals" (libertarians) are thought of as Stevens,
Ginsberg, and Breyer, while the "moderates" (most unpredictable) are
Kennedy, Souter, and O'Connor.

(Liberal Justices are equivalent to Libertarians, in the U.S. Supreme
Court context, because they vote most consistently to uphold individual
liberties in a variety of contexts.  The conservative justices are
statists.) 

No dispute about who the right wing is: Scalia, Rehnquist, and Thomas. 
All three are all but certain to uphold the Act.  So I agree with your
overall prediction: 6-3 to overturn.
rcurl
response 9 of 55: Mark Unseen   Mar 23 03:42 UTC 1997

I'm all for individual liberties!
other
response 10 of 55: Mark Unseen   Mar 24 03:12 UTC 1997

i'm individually for all liberties.
srw
response 11 of 55: Mark Unseen   Mar 24 04:07 UTC 1997

Thanks for your impressions Larry and Richard. I am also optimistic 
after reading analyses elsewhere. Let's just say that I am cautiously 
optimistic.
iczer
response 12 of 55: Mark Unseen   Mar 24 07:47 UTC 1997

I've liberated for (4) individuals.
valerie
response 13 of 55: Mark Unseen   Mar 24 17:14 UTC 1997

This response has been erased.

remmers
response 14 of 55: Mark Unseen   Mar 26 12:23 UTC 1997

A question for the law experts among us: If the Supreme Court
does find the CDA to be unconstitutional, is the majority
opinion likely to indicate what kind of regulatory statute
*would* pass constitutional muster? 
remmers
response 15 of 55: Mark Unseen   Mar 26 12:26 UTC 1997

(Although I too hope the CDA is overturned "once and for all",
I doubt that we have seen the end of attempts to regulate the
internet even if the CDA itself is struck down.)
polygon
response 16 of 55: Mark Unseen   Mar 26 15:56 UTC 1997

It depends on how clear the Justices feel like being that day.
other
response 17 of 55: Mark Unseen   Mar 26 23:10 UTC 1997

the justices may express in their written opinions certain things which
suggest a line they may be willing to draw in the event of another court
challenge, but the opinions themselves will not establish specific legal 
precedents other than in the discussion of the specific reasons why this
particular challenge is overturned (or supported).

legal precedent, often determined by analysis of supreme court opinions, is
only valid as long as it remains unchallenged and unoverturned by another
supreme court opinion, but the precedent can only be created by a particular
court action, as explained in the opinion.

(this is my understanding of the process.  anyone who knows better, please
correct me.)
polygon
response 18 of 55: Mark Unseen   Mar 26 23:25 UTC 1997

Statements that are unnecessary to the ruling on that specific case
are called "dicta".  Dicta are not precedent.  However, dicta from
the U.S. Supreme Court is taken pretty seriously!
other
response 19 of 55: Mark Unseen   Mar 27 03:46 UTC 1997

but as a suggested interpretation of law, not as legal precedent, that simply
being an interpretation not yet challenged or overruled.
polygon
response 20 of 55: Mark Unseen   Mar 27 03:52 UTC 1997

Re 19.  I said, just one line above, "dicta are not precedent."  Not yet
even SUBJECT to being challenged or overruled.  Just a casual comment,
but one which may help PREDICT future interpretations by that Court or
at least that Justice.
remmers
response 21 of 55: Mark Unseen   Mar 27 17:40 UTC 1997

Yep, it was dicta that I was asking about, although I didn't
know the technical term until Larry used it.

Would anybody care to speculate what sorts of dicta the Court
might offer in the CDA case?
tsty
response 22 of 55: Mark Unseen   Mar 28 10:27 UTC 1997

one could hope for:
  
  "... and don't you ever try this again!"
  
remmers
response 23 of 55: Mark Unseen   Mar 28 17:43 UTC 1997

That'd be nice, but somehow I doubt it. Since the concept of
"zoning" has been upheld in other areas (e.g. banning adult
bookstores from certain neighborhoods, banning certain words
from broadcast TV & radio at certain hours of the day), I would
not be surprised if the court were to look favorably on some
such concept for the internet.
polygon
response 24 of 55: Mark Unseen   Mar 28 19:56 UTC 1997

A *.sex domain for porn sites, at the same level as *.com and *.edu?

Of course then the question becomes what is a porn site.
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