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sbj
Tangled in the www Mark Unseen   Jul 18 21:37 UTC 1995

The growing popularity of the World Wide Web is phenominal.  Not only is it
the method of choice for most internet users, but it is a quick, easy way
to spread information.  One measure of it's increasing popularity is the
ever growing number of personal homepages. I have recently created my own
and it occurred to me that, with the spread of personal homepages comes the
spread of the hypertext markup language (html), the code these pages are
written in.

I figured to myself, what better place than this to discuss html, favorite
web sites, creative uses of html, and to surface questions about html syntax,
80 responses total.
sbj
response 1 of 80: Mark Unseen   Jul 18 21:39 UTC 1995

I thought I'd begin by asking if anyone has, or has seen any creative web
sites / uses of html?
raven
response 2 of 80: Mark Unseen   Jul 20 04:07 UTC 1995

        re # 1  No I haven't and it bothers me...  I'm starting to think
WWW is the first wave of the commercialization of the internet, draining
it of it's former life and turning it into an "interactive" billboard.
        Flame away if you so desire...
srw
response 3 of 80: Mark Unseen   Jul 20 06:25 UTC 1995

I think it is marvelous that it is involving more people in internet-related
activities who wouldn't have done so except for the Web.

Check out the Ann Arbor Homepage.
http://info.ann-arbor.mi.us/ann-arbor/online.html

It has a special section on the AA Art fair.
omni
response 4 of 80: Mark Unseen   Jul 20 06:57 UTC 1995

 how does one use that http command?
remmers
response 5 of 80: Mark Unseen   Jul 20 12:32 UTC 1995

Depends on how you access the internet.  If you're a grex member,
you can do it in lynx by typing 'g' and then that long "http://..."
sequence (which is called a URL, short for "uniform resource
locator").  But you won't see any of the graphics that way, since
lynx is a text-only interface to the web.  For the graphics, you
need a graphical browser such as Netscape or Mosaic.

I've been doing quite a bit of web browsing lately and agree that
it is remarkable and for the most part marvelous the way it is
making the internet accessible to more people.

I share some of Matthew's concern that the web is becoming overly
glitzy, but I see more abuses in private individuals' homepages
than on commercial pages.  Everybody seems to be trying to create
the world's most pictorially stunning home page for themselves.
The result is countless homepages that are overloaded with large
graphic images that take *forever* to display, at least on a
slowish PPP connection such as I have.  When the page finally
displays, the information content often turns out to be minimal.
Most irritating.  Sometimes I think the internet is becoming the
glitternet.

However, that's a minor gripe, really.  The easy access to
information afforded by the web is truly remarkable, and in
the short time I've been involved I've found it to be invaluable
professionally.

For an example of a modest homepage with minimal graphics, check
out my embryonic one at http://emunix.emich.edu/~remmers.
sbj
response 6 of 80: Mark Unseen   Jul 20 14:25 UTC 1995

And besides, that glitzy over-graphicized trend is what will keep
Joe "My First Computer" Shmoe on our side.
omni
response 7 of 80: Mark Unseen   Jul 20 16:07 UTC 1995

 Thanks, John.
gull
response 8 of 80: Mark Unseen   Jul 20 17:15 UTC 1995

        Actually, I think it's *good* that the commercial companies are
working through the web...I'd rather have them there then advertising
other ways, say through junk email or Usenet posts.

sbj
response 9 of 80: Mark Unseen   Jul 21 21:56 UTC 1995

I was talking to some one the other day, telling them about some web
thisthatortheother and a friend of theirs, whom I did not know, jumped
all over my back about how WWW was evil and why do you need pictures and
all you really need on the internet is ftp and telnet..
I told him why do you even need those, all you need is a disk and some
good walking shoes.
rcurl
response 10 of 80: Mark Unseen   Jul 23 21:44 UTC 1995

I'm puzzled by the popularity of personal home pages on the web. I have
noticed that people haven't been very aggressive in publishing personal
home pages in newspapers. In fact, most people are usually somewhat shy
and don't want their names in the newspapers. Why do they want them on
the web?
danr
response 11 of 80: Mark Unseen   Jul 23 22:11 UTC 1995

Putting your home page in a newspaper costs money and is low tech, just to
name a couple of things.
popcorn
response 12 of 80: Mark Unseen   Jul 23 23:02 UTC 1995

This response has been erased.

orwell
response 13 of 80: Mark Unseen   Jul 24 02:23 UTC 1995

Gull, in response to your comment, i belive the commercialization of the
internet has dangerous ramifications. 

The internet, as a good friend convinced me, is one of the last refuges
of freedom from censorship. PEople are allowed to post whatever they want
within very few rules. 

But companies like AOL and Compuserve are gaining more of a foothold in the
intersts of the web as a whole. I think it is a good idea for companies to
be able to advertise, but if you have ever seen the way AOL censors its
users, you would see my point more clearly. 

Just about everynoe agrees that the government should stay out of policing
the web and the internet in generalI. I, for one hand, would be just as 
mad as if the government had decided to listen oin on a private phone
call of mine. 

marcvh
response 14 of 80: Mark Unseen   Jul 24 15:26 UTC 1995

Are you sure you're not thinking of Prodigy?  If you want to be afraid
of companies that exert undue control, fear Netscrape or maybe MicroSoft.
remmers
response 15 of 80: Mark Unseen   Jul 24 19:52 UTC 1995

I'm a Prodigy subscriber but don't do the bulletin boards there,
but I have the impression they've backed off considerably from
their original policies of tight control.  Prodigy also offers
Usenet news (I believe all groups, including the "offensive"
ones), web browsing, and internet mail.  I'm impressed by the
degree to which the service has opened up lately; it seems to
represent a significant change of philosophy.
orwell
response 16 of 80: Mark Unseen   Jul 25 04:40 UTC 1995

Marc, thank you. WATCH OUT FOR THE NTESCAPE CORP!!!!
sbj
response 17 of 80: Mark Unseen   Jul 25 15:25 UTC 1995

re #15:  This is good news to me, as I recall subscribing to Prodigy for
about a month.  After that time, I realized that I couldn't do anything
useful or really fun from it.. in fact I recall it being a really great
place to buy furniture or find out the weather in Brazil, but an otherwise
way-too-overly-pretty toy.
gull
response 18 of 80: Mark Unseen   Jul 26 02:55 UTC 1995

The commericalization of the net is inevitable.  Either the government has
to support it, or commercial interests do.  Actually, the way I understand
it, the major backbones have been privately owned for quite a while now. 
I don't think the net will be censored in its entirety; it's too
distributed, it isn't all controlled by one group.  Individual services,
such as Prodigy, can, of course, do what they want, but people can always
take their business elsewhere.  I guess what I'm trying to say is, as long
as the net isn't all owned by one cmpany, it's going to remain fairly open.
adbarr
response 19 of 80: Mark Unseen   Jul 27 21:01 UTC 1995

sbj - thanks for starting this. While tryinglearn some things
about HTML I have had a lot of help from srw.  From what I have
seen so far, the really oustanding pages use graphics for identification,
teaching, and explanation. "Pretty" is nice, but the "wow" factor
wears out fast.  Are the HTML and WEB helsites on the net posted
someplace else on Grex? If not, they could be.
sbj
response 20 of 80: Mark Unseen   Jul 27 22:22 UTC 1995

I was wondering something:  What's the policy on web pages on grex?
Am I correct in thinking that as long as there are no images,
they're ok?  Just wanted to be sure..
popcorn
response 21 of 80: Mark Unseen   Jul 28 12:37 UTC 1995

This response has been erased.

srw
response 22 of 80: Mark Unseen   Jul 29 06:46 UTC 1995

The only reason for that limit is the low bandwidth link. If we can find
a way to upgrade the link, we'll relax the limit on graphics.

I'm a jpeg fan, myself.
sbj
response 23 of 80: Mark Unseen   Jul 29 14:27 UTC 1995

hehe.. well I spent 6 months last year learning TIFF specs in way too much
depth, so I have a bit of a bias.  Anyplace I can get jpeg specs, just
for the heck of it?
marcvh
response 24 of 80: Mark Unseen   Jul 29 16:35 UTC 1995

If you're a big fan of graphics formats, O'Reiley has a big book full of
'em.

The Web, as with desktop publishing and everything else, has concentrated
on lame use of form over genuine expression of content in the short-term.
Java and VRML and the like are only going to make the situation worse in 
the short term.  Eventually things will settle down and people will start
to figure out "It's the content, stupid!"  I only hope HTML hasn't been turned
into a PDL by then; after all, that's what PDF is for.
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