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tsty
Anon Y. Mous being sought in Ohio - for damages! Mark Unseen   Oct 17 12:29 UTC 2000



  Corporate Case in Ohio Raises Questions
  on Internet Anonymity

  By JOHN SCHWARTZ

     John Hritz wants to get to know Jane Doe.

  Jane Doe is the pseudonym for an Internet
  user who posted messages critical of Mr. Hritz
  and the company he serves as a general
  counsel, AK Steel of Middletown, Ohio. 

  Like many publicly traded companies, AK
  Steel, which makes products for cars,
  appliances and other uses, is the subject of a
  message board on Yahoo. And as with many
  online forums, the discussion there tends
  toward the bareknuckled. In one message,
  Jane Doe wrote that Mr. Hritz "will litigate the
  time of day."

  In fact, Mr. Hritz has gone to court over that
  comment and others, claiming that the Doe
  postings are "threatening, libelous and
  disparaging." But even before actually filing a
  lawsuit, Mr. Hritz has asked Ohio's state
  courts to unmask Jane Doe's identity. Civil liberties 
  groups are banding together to try to keep the identity a secret. 

  From the content of the messages, it is evident that 
  Jane Doe works for AK Steel. And Jane Doe's lawyers 
  contend that Mr. Hritz's actual intention is to find and 
  punish an errant employee.

  Lawsuits to pierce the veil of anonymity online are 
  increasingly common
  in the Internet age. But two advocacy groups involved in workplace and
  online issues, Public Citizen and the Electronic Frontier Foundation,
  argue that the AK Steel request goes too far, giving companies the
  power to silence corporate critics whether or not a case will ever be
  filed.

  Some corporations and their advocates counter that the Internet allows
  unfair "online assault" that can damage reputations. Bruce D. Fischman, a
  Miami lawyer, suggested in a recent presentation that maligned
  companies "contact counsel familiar with Internet defamation and
  securities issues to advise you on all legal remedies that may be available
  to unmask the anonymous poster, and pursue a suit for injunctive relief
  and damages."

  Mr. Fischman gave a presentation at Harvard Law School yesterday
  titled, "John and Jane Doe: Freedom Fighters or Verbal Terrorists?"

  The Supreme Court has declared that the First Amendment protects the
  right to speak anonymously as part of the guarantee of free speech; the
  authors of the Federalist Papers, after all, wrote as Publius, not
  Alexander Hamilton, James Madison and John Jay. In court filings
  fighting the request to unmask Jane Doe, the civil liberties groups argue
  that at the very moment the power of the Internet is helping to create the
  biggest marketplace of ideas the world has ever seen, powerful
  companies will be able to squelch online speech by using the courts as a
  "private detective service" to unmask critics.

  "It's a David and Goliath story," said Lauren Gelman, director of public
  policy for the Electronic Frontier Foundation, an online civil liberties
  organization based in California. Ms. Gelman warned of a chilling effect
  on online speech: If the average Internet user "gets a subpoena like this in
  the mail, he's not going to go to the big law firm around the corner and
  say `defend me,' " she said. "He's going to stop talking. And if he stops
  talking, they've won." 

  Paul Allen Levy, a lawyer for Public Citizen, concurred. "It's hard to
  believe that this is a case about defamation," he said. "I think 
  this is a case about intimidation."
  
  Through his lawyer, David C. Horn, Mr. Hritz declined to comment on
  the matter.

  Courts have not yet laid out clear rules governing anonymity online, said
  Robert Corn-Revere, a Washington lawyer who is representing Jane
  Doe in the Virginia courts. "There's no real body of law out there on this,"
  Mr. Corn-Revere said. 

  On Friday, in a similar "John Doe" case that produced a lawsuit, a
  Florida appeals court let stand a lower-court ruling that required Yahoo
  and America Online to divulge the identity of people who posted
  messages critical of Eric Hvide, the former chief executive of Hvide
  Marine Inc. Mr. Hvide claimed in court that the comments had caused
  him to lose his job. 

  "We're still exploring what the possible options are," said Lyrissa Barnett
  Lidsky, a professor at the University of Florida who represented three of
  the defendants on behalf of the American Civil Liberties Union. "Once
  the names are uncovered," she said, the right to speak anonymously is
  "irrevocably lost." 

  In another recent case, the Thomas & Betts Corporation of Tennessee
  tried to uncover the name of an employee who had posted anonymous
  messages on a Yahoo message board, but dropped the suit after Public
  Citizen intervened.

  In Mr. Hritz's case, lawyers tried to learn Jane Doe's identity by using an
  Ohio law that allows people contemplating a lawsuit to begin the process
  of discovery, or legal investigation, before the suit is filed. The Ohio
  court issued a subpoena, which the attorneys sent to Yahoo. The online
  service said it did not know the identity of the commentator, but was able to
  show that the postings were made from an AOL account.

  When the subpoena was then sent to America Online, the company
  followed its own procedures for such cases, sending a letter to the
  potential defendant by overnight mail that explained that the name would
  be disclosed in 14 days if he or she did not raise a legal objection.

  The number of requests for the identities of John and Jane Does is
  growing, said Rich D'Amato, a spokesman for America Online. "We do
  receive hundreds of these subpoenas in a given year," Mr. D'Amato said,
  adding that the rise is "commensurate with the spread of the Internet in
  general as a business tool and as a communications tool."

  The potential  who asked that Jane Doe's actual name and
  sex be withheld as a condition for being  said that upon
  receiving the America Online letter, "I was scared to death." After finding
  Lawrence Lessig, a Stanford law professor, on the Internet, Jane Doe
  sent the information to him. Mr. Lessig in turn passed the case along to
  the Electronic Frontier Foundation, on whose board he serves.

  In an e-mail interview, Mr. Lessig wrote: "If someone charges libel, then
  the anonymity of a poster should be preserved until the libel is proved.
  Otherwise, the subpoena power can be used to silence anonymous,
  critical speech."

  Jane Doe, who has been studying First Amendment law recently, said: "I
  don't want to be a martyr. But this is an issue that's bigger than me. It's
  about how they're going to shape law with the Internet. That's what the
  Internet is all about: the free flow of information. That's what I thought,
  anyway. I'm finding out a little different, right now."
  
  

18 responses total.
sno
response 1 of 18: Mark Unseen   Oct 17 14:09 UTC 2000

So this is now the depository of other people's copyrighted work?

Pretty sad.

brighn
response 2 of 18: Mark Unseen   Oct 17 15:00 UTC 2000

Yeah. Usenet is filling up. ;}
albaugh
response 3 of 18: Mark Unseen   Oct 17 16:48 UTC 2000

What is the potential danger to grex, which, except in the case of member,
*cannot* determine who its users are, if "the courts" determine that such
renegade organizations cannot be allowed to operate?  I.e. how likely is it
that "they" could shut grex down?
raven
response 4 of 18: Mark Unseen   Oct 17 18:45 UTC 2000

Now linked to cyberpunk, your conf of social issues in cyberspace. j cyber
at the next Ok: prompt.
gull
response 5 of 18: Mark Unseen   Oct 18 01:40 UTC 2000

Hmm...I didn't get the impression that that's what this ruling is about. 
Since Yahoo doesn't *know* the user's name, no one's trying to force them to
reveal it.  The only reason they're asking AOL to is that AOL admits to
knowing it.  So I don't see any particular danger to Grex.  I do think this
could set a bad precident, though.  It seems odd that rights you have
normally wouldn't apply just because you choose to communicate
electronically.
md
response 6 of 18: Mark Unseen   Oct 18 02:15 UTC 2000

Someone entered #0 on mnet, too.  This must be spreading across geekdom 
like wildfire.
mcnally
response 7 of 18: Mark Unseen   Oct 18 02:33 UTC 2000

  I believe it appeared on Slashdot, which is a pretty good start towards
  "spreading across Geekdom like wildfire."

  Abuse of legal process can be a pretty serious problem.  #0 doesn't give
  nearly enough detail about what's going on to allow us to judge, but there
  already have been a number of cases where companies or individuals have
  used such means to silence their critics.  It's particularly easy to do
  when the critic is criticising via the Internet, as most ISPs don't want
  to get caught in the middle..
bdh3
response 8 of 18: Mark Unseen   Oct 18 06:22 UTC 2000

http://www.anonimizer.com

(If you trust them...)
gull
response 9 of 18: Mark Unseen   Oct 18 18:56 UTC 2000

Anonymous reposting services have been forced to divulge info in the past. 
You can't trust any of them to be truely secure.
polygon
response 10 of 18: Mark Unseen   Oct 20 17:13 UTC 2000

One of my favorite pen names was used by a writer for the Lansing Star:
Sue D'Nim.
albaugh
response 11 of 18: Mark Unseen   Oct 20 23:31 UTC 2000

Let me restate:  What if nastyguy@cyberspace.org sends e-mails or makes posts
or builds web pages that someone finds objectionable, illegal, worthy of civil
remedies.  That someone, perhaps with a court order in hand, says to grex,
"Reveal the identity of this nastyguy user of yours!"  Grex says, "We cannot,
as we are largely a system of anonymous users."  So that someone looks to make
trouble for grex, trying to get some court somewhere to have grex shut down,
as it is providing a service from which anonymous nastyguys can wreak havoc
with impunity.  And perhaps grex is tacitly encouraging such behavior.

What is the risk to grex, if any, if this scenario were to unfold?
gull
response 12 of 18: Mark Unseen   Oct 20 23:44 UTC 2000

Well, that's basically the situation it sounds like Yahoo was in in this
case, and no one went after them.
scg
response 13 of 18: Mark Unseen   Oct 21 00:14 UTC 2000

A court can't order anybody to release any information they don't have.  As
long as information is either not collected, or destroyed in the regular
course of business, it's generally ok not to have information.  Where legal
problems come in is when information is destroyed in order to keep it from
being able to be produced in response to a court order, which as far as I know
has never happened on Grex.

I would assume that if somebody got a court order to get Grex to turn over
some information, if Grex had the information it would either get turned over
or the order would be appealed.  I don't think we would flat out refuse.
bdh3
response 14 of 18: Mark Unseen   Oct 21 03:47 UTC 2000

So lets overwrite wtmp hourly just to make sure.
mary
response 15 of 18: Mark Unseen   Oct 21 13:37 UTC 2000

Why?  Are we looking to harbor folks looking for a safe base of 
operations for illegal assaults?

I thought we were kind of fond of doing what we needed to do
to be good net citizens.  We should be very upfront and remind
folks from time to time that if presented with court orders
Grex will cooperate fully.
raven
response 16 of 18: Mark Unseen   Oct 21 21:03 UTC 2000

Hmm mary depends on how you define illegal.  In this age of decreasing
constitutional rights I would hope the Grex would take a pro anonymous
freespeech stance based on ethics rather than what is legalThere re laws
pending for example that would make it illegal to provide any information that
be construed as pro drug even in the context of honest debate.  If those laws
pass do we want to be in the postion of enforcing them.  I would also remind
you that the original Federalist papers were written by anonymous authors such
as publis. I would hope that Grex sees anonymous soeech as anabsolute political
right regardless of the shifting sands of law making.
mary
response 17 of 18: Mark Unseen   Oct 21 21:34 UTC 2000

I have no problem with Grex allowing anonymous access, in fact,
it is one of the features I most admire about this place.
But to go the extra step and change how information is stored
here simply to make it harder to track where it came from
is to solicit troublemakers.

In the event of a court order I don't expect anyone on our
Board to do anything but comply with the the order.  We
should discuss what happened, make sure everyone is aware
there are no guarantees of privacy under such actions,
write our congressfolk, collectively jump up and down,
wish for the old days of the "Old West" internet, and 
so on.

But to ask our volunteer Board members to put themselves 
at risk of legal liability is wrong.  

nephi
response 18 of 18: Mark Unseen   Nov 14 04:19 UTC 2000

> When the subpoena was then sent to America Online, the company
> followed its own procedures for such cases, sending a letter to the
> potential defendant by overnight mail that explained that the name 
> would be disclosed in 14 days if he or she did not raise a legal 
> objection.
> 

I really like AOL's solution here.  I much prefer it to what seems to be
Grex's policy.  It seems that using AOL's approach would also reduce the
legal liability of Cyberspace Communication, Inc. 

This assumes, of course, that Grex has any idea about the identity of
the defendant.  
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