response 1 of 28:

Feb 8 03:01 UTC 1996

I agree, for a couple of reasons:

1. Why "read" it more than once if you already know what it says?
Heck, if it were in the bulletin, you'd see it once, and if you
wanted to see it again, you'd "d bull."

2. I'm still mostly relelgated to telnetting in, and long pieces
of text I've already read only get more annoying when I have to
stare at it because of additional lag. Hey, I want to get to the
game; forget the pre-show.

I also don't entirely agree with the tone of the intro, but that's
best save for yet another item. :)

response 3 of 28:

Feb 8 03:48 UTC 1996

Why not just establish a "rough consensus", which is what he says
is all that is needed? This is too stupid for the board to consider.
Me too, on #1.

response 5 of 28:

Feb 8 06:35 UTC 1996

Regarding #0:  The Co-op login screen currently is exactly 6 lines longer than
the Agora login screen.  

Regarding #1, point 1:  The reason that I would like it to be displayed more
than once is that not only is it a (not perfect) description, it's also a
prescription.  I think that if it is left in the login screen, then people
(like Rane) will be able to quote from it to help keep discussions in
focus, etc.  There is an old saying that says something like "out of
sight, out of mind."  If people only see the thing once, they'll probably
forget they even saw it after a while.  Now, about that "not perfect"
part, more in a couple of paragraphs.  

Regarding #1, point 2:  The length of the piece is 18 lines.  The length of
the Agora login screen, which carries very little information at all (although
it is very pretty), is 12 lines.  In fact, the old Co-op login screen was 10
lines.  Now, I can see you saying that every little bit counts.  That's what
I first said when TS proposed putting the message in the login screen instead
of item 1, but I've entered this conference now dozens of times at times when
Grex's load average was in the 40's even, but the login screen reliably comes
up astonishingly fast.  I don't think I've ever seen it take more than a
second (or maybe two, but no more) to display.  

Ragarding #1, point 3 (even though it wasn't numbered 8^):  I agree, too, that
I don't entirely agree with the tone and wording of the intro, but that was
the best that TS and I could come up with by ourselves in a week's (almost
nonexistant) spare time.  In fact, that's one of the reasons that I felt it
should go in the login screen rather than in Item 1.  In Item 1, it would
remain static, poor wording and all, but in the login screen, it can be
changed if we find better wording.  Also, I really like your idea of making
an item to discuss how to change it to better describe/prescribe the way
things work in Co-op.  It's refreshingly constructive.  I'll go create one
when I'm done with this response.  

Regarding #2:  I'm very disappointed with that response, Steve.  Maybe you
were just grouchy like I was when I make some of my earlier responses.  (Lack
of sleep can do that to ya.  8^)  As a refresher, this is what I said:

> TS and I talked about this, and unless there is a board action or a
> membership vote to say that we can't put what we want in our login
> screen, there will be an introductory/reminder piece in the login screen
> for a very long time.  [That was a bit contentious, wasn't it? 8^)]

It has been the Grex tradition ever since there was a Grex for each
conference to be controlled by it's fair-witnesses.  Heck, even with
absent fair-witnesses, nothing can be changed without their blessing.  
Why do you think that Co-op should be different?  Besides, many of the
special interest conferences have a (lengthy) description of themselves in
their login screen.  This is nothing new, and I'm sure that the board
wouldn't vote to remove even a very annoying login screen from a
conference.  

I think that the main reason that you want the login screen removed is
that you don't like what it says.  That's fair.  Instead of being
divisive by treating some of your fellow Grex volunteers (and I thought,
friends) as enemies to be defeated, why don't you try to build a real
consensus (which I really do think is in the Grex tradition) by helping to
create a better login screen?  Then, we'd all be at least grudgingly happy
about the decision.  

Regarding #3:  Rane, I think I covered this in the last paragraph some,
but I should probably reiterate that I agree with you.  It's definitely
best to try to be inclusive and find ways to make everyone happy.  Heck, it
may not always be possible, but it's worth a try . . . .

response 7 of 28:

Feb 8 07:01 UTC 1996

I didn't mean what I said as an attack.

I think we have to recognize that Coop is different from a lot of other
conferences.  Rather than being a conference set up by a group of Grexers to
discuss a topic that interests them, in the way they want to discuss it.  If
people don't like how a conference is being run, they can start another
conference on a related topic and run it differently.  Coop is different. 
Coop is the conference from which Grex is in large part run.  It is the only
conference mandated in the bylaws.  It is the only conference, to my
knowledge, for which we have actually had a board vote to choose an FW.  If
is the conference where anybody complaining about how Grex is doing something
in another conference will be told to come.  Coop is not just any other
conference.  I'm really uncomfortable about having an "all powerful"
fairwitness in Coop.

Mike's making a lot of Coop's login screen not being much bigger than the
login screens of various other conferences.  It is somewhat longer, though,
and log enough to invoke a pager in a 24 line terminal window, when combined
with the logouts of some other conferences.  That makes it seem more on the
large side than it is by itself.  Also, there is a visual difference between
a big picture, and a lot of text.  A picture is easy to just take a glance
at, see it, and ignore it.  With text, my instinct is to start reading, which
is an annoying instinct when it's soemthing that I have already read numerous
times.

Mike, please don't take this as an attack on you.  It's not meant to be.  I'm
merely disagreeing with the way you set this up, and asking you to follow an
emerging consensus and spend a couple of minutes making a really easy change.
Often things can seem very good in concept, and it can be very easy to get
attatched to them, without them turning into good things when implemented.

response 9 of 28:

Feb 8 07:10 UTC 1996

This login screen is annoying.  The Agora login screen isn't.  So there.

I don't believe fairwitnesses "own" conferences in general.  For a conference
like "accordian," I'd tend to yeild the the fw's tastes.  It really is a
personal conference to some extent.  But in "agora" or "coop" the personal
opinion of the fw have much less importance.  If "garage/skunkworks/shop"
gets created, I'd place it in the same class, which is why I don't think my
idea for the name should necessarily dominate.

response 11 of 28:

Feb 8 11:47 UTC 1996

  Re 10, I agree - Katie's my fave fairwitness; if she even reads
Agora, I'm not aware of it :-).
 
  Re 9, yes, it's not so much the length, although it seems a bit
longer than it should be, so much as an overall vague annoyance.
 
  I definitely don't like guidelines posted so that people can
quote them like the gospel throughout the conference.  This
happens on M-Net.  It would bug me all the more that the quoted
text in this case is not the result of any consensus.  I think
it's a solid intro for co-op virgins, but not for every login.
 
  Re 5, if you want a specific suggestion, here's one:
 
Welcome to the eighth edition of           .o.
                                           888
 .ooooo.   .ooooo.      .ooooo. oo.ooooo.  888
d88' `"Y8 d88' `88b    d88' `88b 888' `88b Y8P
888       888   888 88 888   888 888   888 `8'
888   .o8 888   888    888   888 888   888 .o.
`Y8bod8P' `Y8bod8P'    `Y8bod8P' 888bod8P' Y8P
                                 888
<fairwitnesses: tsty & nephi>   o888o
 
Where everyone is welcome to join discussions about running Grex!

response 13 of 28:

Feb 8 17:38 UTC 1996

hmmm, i guess i made my respons abutthe login scren a little prematurely.
  
i'll go get it and put it in here. 
  
In the meantime, consider that the login is not meant for it to grow
on you, rather the reverse, it is meant for you to grow on, and from, it.
  
I don't beleive taht the login screen is one whit of a shift from what
this conference is - you might wnat to consider the login screen
to be an severely minimized abstract of its contents.
  
brb.

response 15 of 28:

Feb 8 18:52 UTC 1996

Yuck.

response 17 of 28:

Feb 9 04:32 UTC 1996

I sure would like to see a *much* shorter cf herald.  Most of what's
there most assuredly belongs in the intro item instead.

response 19 of 28:

Feb 9 19:43 UTC 1996

   My feelings aren't quite as stong as John's brevitious response in
#15 is.  But might I remind you TS, that this constant hammering of the
noble goals of coop upon people's heads every time they get into it
smacks of feelings similar to "I'm from the government and I'm here
to *help* you"?  Stating something once or twice is a fine thing.
Shoving it into people's mouths isn't so great.

response 21 of 28:

Feb 9 21:50 UTC 1996

I think that having a member vote as to how this should go would be a good
thing to do.  Gutsy, but good.  I mean, it would back up all of our lofty
statements about how Grex is run by the members.  If it should turn out
that what the membership decides is in conflict with what a Board member
feels comfortable doing then the Board member (or members, as the case may
be) should resign. 

But I'm not much in the mood to champion this vote.  I don't know enough
about how this will all fall out to make any decisions, yet. 

response 23 of 28:

Feb 10 00:10 UTC 1996

I dunno, people seem to be taking this intro message pretty seriously.  >8)