response 1 of 81:

May 31 21:12 UTC 1995

Oh yeah..one last thing -
a little list of things...
I WILL:
  Read any private email left to me...
  Always miss grex
  Remember you guys
  Keep writing scripts, or getting them, so if you want one, email avi@lm.com
  Responding to email concering help with unix or anything with computers
  Keep track of what goes on in this item until it dies from lack of responce
or I am asked to leave again by a staffer


I WILL NOT: 
  Come back to grex unless I see needed, or invited. 
  Bother Grexxers that have harassed me via means outside of grex... 
  Bomb or nuke grex or cause anymore damage to it because of getting
booted (Yes, I was asked this question...)
  Create anymore pseudos on here
  Hold any grudges

If my account is reinstated:
  I will just clean up my files; forward my mail; and whatever else
is needed.
        Thanks again.
        -Avi

response 3 of 81:

May 31 21:31 UTC 1995

Doh, I screwed up my last note, oh well, I really hope you don't go avi, I'll
miss you and I'm sure tons of other grexers will miss you. You'v never really
been a pain or a problem, and you'v always helped me whenever I needed help.

response 5 of 81:

May 31 23:13 UTC 1995

Well, avi, you can count me as one staff member who will very
much miss your presence here.  I'm glad I got to know you as
one of the few other people who would actually help new users
with their problems, as well as the guy who caused some problems.

(Of course, I'd rather you hadn't caused the problems at all...)

response 7 of 81:

Jun 1 01:54 UTC 1995

I am very disappointed in the decision regarding avi pai.  Avi is a helpful
and smart and nice person to have around, and he is a good friend, as I have
learned in the last year. I for one, can think of quite a few fuckers I would
IMMEDIATELY give the boot to, but N, it's always the ones who deserve it least
who get it. I have lost all respect for grex staffers (with notable
exceptions)_ and I think avi should be invited back immediately, with an
apology given to him. Avi has donegiven more online help to newcomers here than
a lot of staffers would EVER do.  Avi had time to answer questions, and offer
opinion, in adition to goofing around and talking it up with his friends.

I am not sad to see Avi go, because I still talk to him through other means,
but I am sad  that grex, the once beloved freenet and community server has
gotten so fuicking totalitarian in its old age.  I have made quite a few good
friends from here, and this just totally disgusts me.


What's next, AOL-type censorship?

A very piised off vampire Lestat
Anyone feel different?  Mail me, I'll be civil.  (sort of  =])

response 9 of 81:

Jun 1 02:25 UTC 1995

I say I have to agree with lestat, avi has alway, well, 99percent of the time
helped people who needed ity, sometimes just little things, but avi spends time
helping those who need it, I say like lestat says, we should all invite avi
back with an apology

response 11 of 81:

Jun 1 02:41 UTC 1995

Alright damn, sometime ago I heard soemthing, grex was supposed to be a bbs in
which THE PEOPLE on it had a say on what happened, alight damnit, then why
don't we have a vote or something on which avi should stay or go. I t seems to

response 13 of 81:

Jun 1 02:48 UTC 1995

Hmmm... I found some very disturbing mail in my user spool today...
It said that my dear friend, Avi, was being "asked to leave".
This my sound naive and foolish...
But, even though I didn't know Avi as well as most of you, and I wasn't
really *close* friends w/ him...
For the life of me I can't understand why he was kicked offf...
I mean, yeah, he did a few things that maybe he shouldn't have... but so
have lots of people!!!  There are numerous people that have done things
to me and my friends that I have not appreciated much.  But I never
bothered to complain to the sysops, and eventually (most of) these people
realized how stupid they were being and shaped up...
Avi sometimes was a little sharper than he needed to be, but so what?  So
have we all at one point or another!
I guess what I'm trying to say is, Avi is a very sweet guy, and a good
person.
When I first got on Grex he was one of the people who showed me how it
worked.
He also cheered me up when I was having bad days...
And explained to me things I didn't understand...
I'm not sure I agree with *all* lestat said, but I certainly agree with
him about asking Avi to come back, and owing him an apology.

I'm still unclear as to whether or not Avi can read this, I hope he can.
But if he can't would someone, lestat?, be kind enough to tell him this
for me?  please?  Thanx.
Avi--
I'm not on another net system, Grex is all I have right now.  So unless you
come back, I prob'ly won't be seeing you ever again. Which saddens me.
I just wanted to say thank you, Avi, for being a good person, for being my
friend, and for being Avipie for me. :)
Love ya!
PLease take care of yourself, and mail me if you can.
con amor,
Claire

response 15 of 81:

Jun 1 03:47 UTC 1995

Since I'm the staff member who made the decision to suspend ryan1's
and avi's accounts, I guess I'll be the first one to respond to
this.

Several days ago, staff received e-mail from a Grex user complaining
that all of his files had been deleted, and replaced with some
zero-content directories named things like "I told you not to fuck
with me" and "I said I would make your life a living hell, this is
just the beginning".  He also said that he thought avi had
done this, but did not give any reason why he thought that.

I investigated the situation, and discovered several login sessions
for this user's account from ryan1@nether.net, avi@nether.net,
and terrazzo.lm.com (one of the TeleRama public-access Internet
machines, in Pittsburgh).  Since the times of these login
sessions coincided with the timestamps on the "graffiti" directories,
and since this user usually logs in via the dialups, I
concluded that the damage to this user's account had been done
by ryan1 and avi.

Since this was not the first complaint staff had received about
ryan1 and/or avi harassing users on Grex, I felt that the normal
actions which staff would take in this situation -- sending mail
to the person who did it asking them to not do it again, restoring
the affected user's files from a backup tape, etc. -- would not
be sufficient.  We had already done this several times in the past
for both ryan1 and avi, and it clearly didn't seem to have done any
good.  So, I talked to STeve Andre', who was on-line at the time.
I described the situation to him, and asked him if he thought it
would be out of line to temporarily suspend ryan1's and avi's accounts.
He agreed with me that just talking to ryan1 and avi probably wouldn't
do any good, and that it was necessary to take more drastic action 
to get their attention.

So, I changed the shell on ryan1's and avi's accounts to
/usr/local/bin/vandalsh, which printed a message about the account
being disabled, and suggested that the user contact staff
to resolve the issue, after which it logged them off.  I also
changed the permissions and ownership on /u/ryan1 and /u/avi such
that ryan1 and avi could not access their files if they logged on
under a different account.

Ryan and Avi both sent mail to staff, and we explained what
had happened.  One staff member who responded also stated that
it was his personal opinion that Avi should leave Grex and not
come back.  However, this was clearly marked as his personal
opinion, and should not be construed to represent the opinions
of the Grex staff.  Staff officially suggested that Avi should
enter an item in coop about this, and let the users decide
whether he should get his account back.

It's my personal opinion that Avi has made some valuable contributions
to Grex, and I'm sad to see him go.  My intent in suspending the
accounts was not to drive away either user, but simply to
get their attention, since it seemed that simple mail from staff
wasn't getting through.  If Avi is willing to stop harassing users
(and it sounds like he is), then I would have no problems with
turning his account back on.

Finally, to respond to some of the specific points raised in the
item: Just because Grex is "open access" doesn't mean that people
are welcome to harass other people on the system.  Everyone
is expected to act in a civil manner and refrain from maliciously
damaging others.  In this case, it's still unclear how ryan1/avi
were able to get into the affected user's account.  One hypothesis
is that they got the user to run a "trojan horse" program, which claimed
to do something helpful, but actually gave ryan1/avi access to
their account.  If this is the case, then there's really little
that staff can do to prevent this sort of thing.  Yes, we can
tell people to be careful running programs out of other people's
directories, but there is nothing to stop someone from running
another user's scripts if they want to.

I don't think Grex should stop being an open system.  I have always
strongly supported an open newuser, equality on the dialin lines, and
open access through the Internet, and I think I will continue to
support these for a long time.  However, I don't think Grex should
turn into an unfriendly system or a war zone, where unsuspecting new
users are preyed upon by malicious hoodlums.  I made the decision to
suspend ryan1's and avi's accounts not because I wanted to lock them
out of the system -- I realize as well as anyone else that they can
easily just run newuser and create a new account -- but because I
wanted to get their attention.  It certainly worked, though it appears
to have worked a bit too well.  Ryan and Avi were not "kicked off" the
system, though they appear to have taken it that way; they have chosen
to leave.

response 17 of 81:

Jun 1 05:34 UTC 1995

        Ryan1.. let me start here.
        I really don't like him. Not one bit. Still, I think he should be
allowed back. Yes, a twit he is <to me>, but that's little reason to suspend
him indefinetly.
        Now, on to seriousness..
        Avi.
        Avi is as true a friend as I've ever had. He had the patience to
explain to me any and every thing about UNIX, or PicoSpan, or party, that
I could ever ask.
        When I said I was having trouble working the commands in a
MUD, elsewhere, he followed me there, and taught me the basics. I mean,
he just up and logged out of where he was, and netted to the MUD with
me! He spent time while I repeated stupid mistakes, until he was
sure I wouldn't get killed off, and only after asking if I thought I'd
be okay, did he leave.. and I was fine.
        His heart was solid gold.. he never meant any harm to anyone,
unless you messed with him or his friends, and that would have to be
pretty badly! He deemed himself protector of the newbie, and was always
kind to not only me, but every other newbie to come through here, that
I saw. He got most angry when he saw people picking on them, and, in
that, a newbie could feel that there was a champion for them, to
fend off the REAL punks and malicious people. He was always sweet to
these new ones, and helped put a kind face on grex for me, when I first
got here.
        But now, he's gone.
        You know.. if you're going to start using these tactics, maybe you
should WARN people, staff. Nowhere in newuser is there a mention of this
being a mode of punishment..
        There are plenty worse characters here who should be so unfortunate
as to make a mistake, and have staff jump on them. nd the fact that one of
you felt that he should never come back hurt him a lot, I'm sure! So, it's
not the official staff view.. so what? What is? you guys never agree
on anything anymore, even on who the good guys are. Well, so all he knows
is that soeone here hates him, someone in a position of power. I don't
think anyone would want to return to a place where that was the case.
<Except me, but that's because I don't believe in letting my foes off
that easy>
        Lestat, agreement flows from me to you, in almost every case.
Let's just hope this doesn't touch off a CyberCivilWar.. the partiers
and the PicoSpanners are divided enough!

response 19 of 81:

Jun 1 05:47 UTC 1995

You rock my world.

response 21 of 81:

Jun 1 06:00 UTC 1995

I am a staffer who has heard tales of Avi's helpfulness. I do believe these,
and doubt Grex can afford to lose people who can be this helpful.

At the same time, there is a history of Avi "messing up" people on
this system. Tree says: "The only people these two would
mess with are people they havea  REASON to mess with."
That kind of logic defies me. What people does anyone have a right to
abuse? Avi has been unable to control this side and it happened again.

My personal opinion is that he should not take the message from one 
staffer quite so much to heart, and understand that he is welcome here if he
can learn to behave. No matter how much he may be goaded, he does not 
have the right to interfere with others' use of the system, though.
The staff's function is to make sure that each of you can use the system
without this kind of interference.

The staff, by the way, is not a clique that thinks alike, but rather
a diverse set of people, just like the rest of you.
It is a thorough misrepresentation to say that the staff hates him.

response 23 of 81:

Jun 1 10:17 UTC 1995

I believe that Grex is a poorer place without Avi.