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Grex > Coop7 > #31: How should staff respond to requests that offense .plan files be changed? | |
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| Author |
Message |
srw
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How should staff respond to requests that offense .plan files be changed?
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Apr 8 18:52 UTC 1995 |
The staff is currently pondering a policy question that has come up
as a result of the actions of some strange users out there. I am posting
this here so that the staff can discuss this policy question out in the open.
Members and nonmembers alike are welcome to make suggestions and comments,
as well.
It all started when a user posted a message to usenet somewhere saying
finger blahblah@cyberspace.org for personal info. The account
was an anonymous account, and we have received complaints that it consists
of intense personal attacks in a language no on e understands.
We don't like intense personal attacks, but there is no one logging
into or using that account, it seems. It appears to have been created
specifically for the purpose of making these attacks.
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| 74 responses total. |
srw
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response 1 of 74:
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Apr 8 18:56 UTC 1995 |
I was asked:
> Any thoughts about what, if anything, to do about the complaints that we
> have a user who posts personal insults to Usenet?
Here are some possibilities I have been weighing. These are my slants on
the subject. I'd like to hear comments from others.
(1) we could do nothing. We've been doing this so far. It has a certain
idealistic free-speech flavor to it.
(It has its charm , but I am not real happy about this particular use
of an anonymous account. It is associated with usenet abuse and makes
grex look like a dungheap. This is what we are doing now, though)
(2) we could do our best to contact the alleged author, and ask
him/her to remove the offensive material, or explain it.
(Good thought, but it puts us as a referee in disputes. I hate that.
Also, it won't work in this case, because the account is anonymous,
except for the name given which matches the "victims")
(3) We could move the .plan to .plan.save and replace it with a
note daying that if the author wants the text replaced, he or she
should send email to staff@cyberspace.org, and we will put it back
after verifiying the author's identity.
I kinda like #3, myself.
I am definitely open minded about this one.
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zook
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response 2 of 74:
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Apr 8 20:02 UTC 1995 |
I'm not staff, but here are my $0.02. It's not our job to police users,
although as a community we could frown at people putting offensive things
into their plan. Ie, they are welcome to put whatever in, but they may lose
friends here if they say something really awful (as would happen if we were
all neighbors and this was verbal).
As to the specific user in question, if the account is truly inactive, it
should be unceremoniously reaped.
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rcurl
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response 3 of 74:
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Apr 9 04:12 UTC 1995 |
What are "intense personal attacks in a language no on e understands"?
If no one understands it, how can it be a personal attack. (I tried
to read .plan in blahblah, but I can't.)
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katie
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response 4 of 74:
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Apr 9 20:39 UTC 1995 |
I also don't understand what is meant by intense personal attacks in a
language no one understands.
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lilmo
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response 5 of 74:
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Apr 9 22:24 UTC 1995 |
Re #1: Some version of (3) also appeals to me, although I am not happy
about putting the .plan back. In re: #2, since this is an anonymous user,
s/he has no friends here to lose, hence no social incentive.
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popcorn
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response 6 of 74:
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Apr 10 00:52 UTC 1995 |
Re 3: It's in Chinese. Evidently there's a standard way to write Chinese
in ascii. Nobody on staff has any idea how to read this .plan file.
But the user whose name is on it claims that it's full of insults to
him and to his family and friends. In Chinese.
Re 2: If the user whose name is on the account had created the account,
that's one thing. But in this case *someone else* created the account
just to annoy the person whose real name was attached to the account.
Now the person with the real name is asking us to change the account.
Staff isn't sure what the right thing to do is.
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steve
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response 7 of 74:
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Apr 10 03:07 UTC 1995 |
There has been some *real* acrimony in the American and non-American
Chinese community over the net, about things that I don't really understand.
But I do know of mail-bombing (like thousands of peices), hate mail,
death threats, and the like going on, on several systems. George Washington
University is dealing with this, too.
My personal feelings about this .plan and account is that this is
a cowardly act, and if someone does not have the courage of their
convictions to stand behind their words, they don't deserve any special
rights for their speech.
Creating a .plan is definately cowardly. I like Steve's #3. But
we won't ever hear from that person, and thats fine with me.
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janc
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response 8 of 74:
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Apr 10 03:18 UTC 1995 |
You shouldn't spend a lot of time fussing over this. Do plan (3), and get
on with doing constructive things for users we care about.
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rcurl
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response 9 of 74:
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Apr 10 04:15 UTC 1995 |
I agree. I don't see any reason to coddle stupid junk. It has no
redeeming merits for protection as "free speech".
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adbarr
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response 10 of 74:
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Apr 10 04:16 UTC 1995 |
For What It Is Worth Dept.: 1 Do Plan 3. 2 Now! 3 Have Board
issue standing policy to be implemented automatically in future -
respectfully submitted, adbarr.
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selena
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response 11 of 74:
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Apr 10 06:17 UTC 1995 |
Do number 3.. no one is hurt that way, even if it's used in a different
way, some later date.
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srw
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response 12 of 74:
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Apr 10 06:54 UTC 1995 |
Accordingly, #3 has been implemented.
I am sorry (re#8) if it seems that we are spending a lot of time fussing,
but we had no policy for this and believe that issues like this
should be discussed and resolved in public. The response was overwhelming,
and the staff appreciates it.
It's not always easy to distinguish a free speech issue from a bogus one.
I suspect we don't need a formal policy approved by the board, though
I'm curious to know if any disagree.
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ajax
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response 13 of 74:
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Apr 10 09:15 UTC 1995 |
If you're asking if anyone disagrees (not just the board), I'd say
just leave such things alone, unless they pose legal problems. If
people are offended by something, they should avoid reading it; a
.plan file doesn't leap out at people unless they're looking for it.
This seems little different than someone posting personal attacks in
a conference - we may encourage the author to remove it, but it's
tolerated. I don't think the staff should play the role of system
censor.
On the other hand, I don't think option 3 is that bad, since it allows
the person to put back the offensive comments (I would assume permanently,
until the account is reaped) if they want it there. (Though I assume they
do or it wouldn't have been there in the first place).
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lilmo
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response 14 of 74:
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Apr 10 20:57 UTC 1995 |
Re #9: Way to go, rcurl !!!
Re #13: Ahhh... but some ppl presumably WERE looking for it. For some, I'm
sure it was their first encounter with Grex. NOT the kind of impression
I'm happy to be leaving. :-(
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chelsea
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response 15 of 74:
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Apr 10 22:40 UTC 1995 |
Personally, I'd want to know what something said before I
pronounced it stupid and unworthy of consideration under
Free Speech. But then I'm kinda weird that way. ;-)
No biggie but maybe next time we should find out what
something says before we get all pumped and take action.
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steve
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response 16 of 74:
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Apr 11 01:25 UTC 1995 |
We do have an extremely good idea of what the message says. If
we hadn't, I wouldn't have thought it was a good idea to stiffle the
message.
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chelsea
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response 17 of 74:
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Apr 11 11:57 UTC 1995 |
Sorry then. I thought everything you know about the
content had come from the folks who were upset about it.
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katie
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response 18 of 74:
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Apr 11 15:47 UTC 1995 |
How could someone create a .plan for someone else?
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brenda
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response 19 of 74:
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Apr 11 15:49 UTC 1995 |
I think they created an account using that person's name. btw- isn't
that something like "impersonating"? I thought that was illegal..
or wouldn't creating a computer account apply to that?
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sidhe
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response 20 of 74:
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Apr 11 22:38 UTC 1995 |
Brenda- probably like most other things the legality of cyber-
imnpersonation is untested, yet.
I am glad to see #3 inplemented. It would've been my choice.
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srw
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response 21 of 74:
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Apr 12 19:17 UTC 1995 |
We don't know exactly what it said. No one here can decipher the Chinese
text. We have some reasons to trust the complaining party that it was
offensive, sexually explicit, derogatory comments about his/her family.
It was almost impersonation. The name given was the same as the
victim, but no other identification was given. Therefore we do not
(in theory) know that it was not someone with the same name.
I think the impersonation angle is too weak to pursue. If I had
become convince there was a solid case for impersonation,
I would have turned control of the account over to the impersonated
party.
The .plan was being fingered because attention was being drawn to it from
(allegedly) extensive posting of it in the alt.chinese.text group.
This would be a very directed audience.
There have been a few well thought out objections, but I am convinced
that we did the right thing. If this kind of thing ever happens again,
we will act similarly, but much more quickly, knowing that the vast majority
of users approve of this action.
Feel free to continue or elaborate, though. We're still listening.
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ajax
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response 22 of 74:
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Apr 13 00:25 UTC 1995 |
The impersonation angle is what would sway me the most to remove the
text. If I thought the impersonation was believable, and knew that it
was an impersonation, then I'd be apt to nix it...but if the .plan had
just insults or offensive comments ("Me and my family are bozos!"), it
doesn't sound like a credible impersonation.
I'm not objecting to the decision, but not all that many people even
responded to this, so "majority of users" is an extrapolation. Though
a majority of users who care enough to give their opinions support it!
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rcurl
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response 23 of 74:
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Apr 13 06:22 UTC 1995 |
Our posted Netiquette statement would seem to be sufficient to
zap that file. Here is a brief extract (look on lynx in Grex
Activities for Netiquette):
"The use of the Internet is a privilege, not a right, that may
be revoked at any time for inappropriate conduct. Examples of
inappropriate conduct include:
"- placing unlawful information on networks and systems;
"- use of threatening, abusive, or otherwise objectionable
language in either public or private messages;
"- sending "chain letters" or "broadcast" messages to lists
or individuals; and
"- any activity that could cause congestion or disruption of
networks and systems."
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srw
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response 24 of 74:
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Apr 13 07:22 UTC 1995 |
It was alleged that it was abusive and objectionable. Should we have believed
the victim? I did so in this case because the "attacker" was a
hit-and-run anonymous account creator, and not in any sense a user
of Grex any longer.
If there had been anyone to back up the speech I would have had a lot more
trouble with a decision to zap it. Even so, the "attacker" could contact
us and ask for it to be reinstated.
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