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Grex > Coop6 > #71: Why not collect for memberships via credit cards & avoid the US Snail? | |
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kt8k
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Why not collect for memberships via credit cards & avoid the US Snail?
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Dec 29 18:26 UTC 1994 |
Since I don't see this elsewhere here (but I confess to not having read
*everything*)
Why doesn't grex take remote credit card memberships like other bbses -
Rusty & Edie's do that routinely. Of course they reserve the right to
withhold membership until they have checked you out, and often call new
members to verify their age (they NEED to do that, with the kind of bbs
they run - very friendly and as rule-less as possible). I realize there
is a risk of credit card info be intercepted, but (and I could ask them)
how can that be a problem if THEY are doing it? They have a LOT more
members than we do, spread over just as big a geographic area (world-wide)
So ... any comments on this idea? I would prefer it to having to "get
around" to using the US Snail .
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| 59 responses total. |
mju
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response 1 of 59:
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Dec 29 18:58 UTC 1994 |
Well, first off, this is an interesting idea. However, I won't (and many
others feel similarly) send my credit card number over the Internet
without encryption. Grex could register a PGP public key and use
that to accept credit card numbers, but that's just about the lower
bound on what I'd consider acceptable.
I'm not quite sure why age verification is necessary when their BBS
is "friendly and rule-less", but that's beside the point.
The risk of interception *is* there. Many people choose to ignore it.
Many people also use credit cards in transactions where the card is
verified (or even charged) over a cellular phone, where the risk of
interception is at least as high as when it's sent over the Internet.
Two other problems are that Grex would have to find a bank that is
willing to let us to credit card transactions. Usually you have to have
some minimum amount of business to do this. There is also some
surcharge that the credit card company takes from the sale, in the
neighborhood of 2% or so. So Grex wouldn't get quite as much from
credit card memberships as from a check.
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steve
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response 2 of 59:
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Dec 29 22:40 UTC 1994 |
I think it boils down to money. What would it cost to be able
to accept credit cards, and how does Dan see that as impacting what
he does. For a small group such as us, I'm not sure we could really
afford it. I would hope that it wouldn't be a pain to administer, I
don't know about that part at all.
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danr
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response 3 of 59:
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Dec 30 00:49 UTC 1994 |
I'll look into it again, but I do think it would be a major hassle for
the treasurer to have to deal with multiple credit card donations
each month. And as Steve noted, we would have to pay the credit card
company a percentage of our take.
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andyv
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response 4 of 59:
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Dec 30 01:39 UTC 1994 |
Sounds like a good idea to me. I think it would be down right pleasant to
take a bunch of credit card transactions for full memberships to the bank
each month. The cost of the transaction can be added onto the membership
fee and I wouldn't quibble about it if I were inclined to use plastic.
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marcvh
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response 5 of 59:
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Dec 30 04:45 UTC 1994 |
There may be other options as well involving an intermediary who does
some of the work for Grex. First Virtual, for instance, does a low-tech
approach using credit cards indirectly; there's a little more cost
overhead involved, of course.
Info on it is available at <URL:http://www.fv.com/> though it seems to
be down at the moment. I'm not sure this would do what we want, but I
think there may exist something like this than can.
Mind you, I think the risks of sending credit card numbers on the
Internet unencrypted are overstated, since anybody who wants to can get
credit card numbers more easily in other ways, such as becoming a waiter
at almost any restaurant or bribing one.
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marcvh
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response 6 of 59:
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Dec 30 06:01 UTC 1994 |
(For that matter, I should mention in passing that it is not at all clear
to me that the free version of PGP may legally be used for this purpose.)
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steve
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response 7 of 59:
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Dec 30 18:26 UTC 1994 |
Ah, but snooping on a system that has credit card traffic comming
over it is near to impossible to trace after the fact. It makes for
some juciy possibilities. If we are to accept credit cards, then
I'd hope that people would be able to call Dan with the number, if
Dan agrees to it all.
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tsty
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response 8 of 59:
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Dec 30 19:10 UTC 1994 |
didn't pegasus say that she would allow us to take credit
card numbers if we chose to do so, and she would process them
for whatever little fee there was?
My comprehension was that her company would then remit the $$$
to Grex in cash/check or someting equally negotiable.
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davel
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response 9 of 59:
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Dec 30 21:28 UTC 1994 |
Dan, this is coming 100% off the cuff, so it's probably off the wall, too.
Are credit cards our only option for the actual needs we want to serve
with it? I've never had to investigate instructing a bank to transfer
money directly to an account at another bank. I know it's done all the
time - for really big transactions; I just have no idea what kind of fee
is charged (on either end) and whether small transactions like those we
deal in (mostly) would even qualify.
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srw
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response 10 of 59:
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Dec 30 21:31 UTC 1994 |
You're right, TS. Pegasus did volunteer. It was a while ago, and there was
a cost recovery factor involved. I don't remember the details, and I don't
know whether she would be inclined to consider that offer still open.
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davel
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response 11 of 59:
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Dec 30 21:55 UTC 1994 |
I brought it up again a couple of months or so ago, when the question of
credit cards came up *again*, and she again expressed her willingness, I
think.
I really think we need to make a decision on this & not just keep letting
it come up over and over. Speaking only for myself, I'm strongly against
accepting card #s over the net, but quite willing to see us accept them by
mail or (if the treasurer is willing, which I wouldn't be) by phone - if
we can contain the fees & make it work easily. Assuming for the sake of
discussion that we think it's a good idea, I think Dan needs to talk to
Pattie about how it would work - to see if we *can* make it work easily.
Does anyone have reservations beyond security or practicality - anything
that says we shouldn't even go ahead and find out if it's practical to
investigate at that level?
(I haven't gone back & re-read all the responses here, much less tried to
locate earlier discussions. But we shouldn't discuss it endlessly as
an abstract question unless someone actually has reservations.)
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davel
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response 12 of 59:
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Dec 30 22:02 UTC 1994 |
(Looking back, I see that Dan had reservations about practicality. Since
he's the one who would have to put up with any hassle, maybe I shouldn't
rule them out up front, after all. But I'd like to actually *know*
what the procedure would have to be, first. Sorry, Dan.)
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marcvh
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response 13 of 59:
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Dec 30 23:25 UTC 1994 |
Those are two areas where the First Virtual option at least bears
investigating:
Workwise, it could be less work than is done currently; since everything
is online, in principle payment could be totally automatic and not
require any per-transaction treasurer work unless something unusual
happens.
As long as we're talking about money, a regular issue is international
payment. FV claims they'll have a mechanism for such transactions in
place RSN, which could be vaporware but is still more thn currently
easily available. It's not clear that this intl system will actually
work, nor is it clear that even domestically anybody would actually use
this system (though if not, we're not out anything but a little time and
a $10 setup fee.)
It's hard to say. US-mailing a credit card number is scarcely any more
timely or convenient than just sending a check, though. Telephoning a
human (or an answering machine) is possible, but a nontrivial burden. I
like the idea of letting somebody else do that grunt work for us unless
the cost of doing so is too high.
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davel
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response 14 of 59:
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Dec 31 01:41 UTC 1994 |
If I remember correctly: in at least some past versions of this discussion,
an important reason *for* accepting credit cards is that (it was alleged)
this is often much easier for those outside the US than trying to come up
with something else Grex could process. So US-mailing may not be the most
important thing to look at. Last I heard, we are effectively unable to
process anything not payable in $$US. We've gotten a serious number of
users from outside the US since the link opened up; I'm not sure how many
of them have survived long-term, but they're a valuable element.
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chi1taxi
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response 15 of 59:
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Dec 31 02:41 UTC 1994 |
I am strongly against credit cards. The banks have millions of petty
extortions going around saying, give my bank 3%, or I won't buy here.
I don't think grex should get involved.
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danr
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response 16 of 59:
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Dec 31 02:47 UTC 1994 |
I have found out how users not living in the US can wire funds directly
to our bank. This costs us $10 per transaction. I'm guessing that
a similar fee (perhaps a little less) would be charged for domestic
transactions. So, this form of payment seems kind of expensive for
domestic users, but not too bad for non-US users.
If we really want to settle the credit card issue once and for all,
I'd say let's forget about it. I don't see it attracting that many
members, and I don't think it's worth the hassle and expense.
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steve
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response 17 of 59:
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Dec 31 03:20 UTC 1994 |
Wether one is against credit cards or not (and I mostly agree) its
a worthwhile thing to look at.
I didn't know it was that cheap to send money overseas. That sounds
like a reasonable option for someone who wants to get a years membership
here. Remember, anyone in europe is already used to paying an extra $15
to $30 per year for magazine subscriptions, etc. It's the cost of doing
business with America.
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marcvh
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response 18 of 59:
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Dec 31 03:58 UTC 1994 |
Well, it's not just about credit cards per se, but commerce on networks
in general, how it will work, and how Grex can/should fit into it.
I'd like to see a situation in which an average person can decide
membership in Grex is a sensible thing and become a member more or
less instantly (well, within ten or fifteen minutes) without the need
for anybody at Grex to do anything. This is impossible with checks;
with the right kind of system, it could be done with credit cards and a
few perl scripts.
There is, of course, overhead for this. A $60 transaction would have a
$1.49 overhead loss. I think this only becomes prohibitive for small
transactions, though part of it depends what the treasurer's time is
worth.
(Whether this is desirable, of course, is another issue. I think it is,
and will become increasingly so if the member base continues to grow in
size and diversity. Conversely, there are other concerns with things
like security, even if the actual credit card numbers aren't online.)
What is the cost for credit card holders overseas to have transactions
processed here in US dollars? Is it really as much as for wiring money?
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danr
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response 19 of 59:
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Dec 31 13:37 UTC 1994 |
I think our membership base would have to grow significantly for this
to become truly practical. I think that point may be where we need
to hire a staff person to take care of the books.
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andyv
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response 20 of 59:
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Dec 31 16:27 UTC 1994 |
There are quite a few businesses who have gambled on trying to offer
quick and convenient and have had it pay. I don't see how credit card
transactions complicate the bookkeeping either. It is the small businesses
who benefit the most by accepting credit cards. Mail order is a good
example of the trend to use plastic.
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marcvh
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response 21 of 59:
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Dec 31 17:05 UTC 1994 |
Just so we're clear on this, are we talking about
1) The time and expense required to set up such a system
2) The time and effort required to process transactions
3) The percentage of money lost to overhead
as the main problem? I guess I don't see how a larger membership base
will help with 2) (though I don't think 2) is really a problem anyway,
since sending a couple pieces of email is probably no harder than
endorsing a check and going to the bank.) It could make 1) more
justifiable or 3) less of a problem.
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danr
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response 22 of 59:
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Dec 31 17:54 UTC 1994 |
I think it's all of the above, but 1 and 2 specifically. I guess I
just don't see Grex as an "impulse buy," and that being able to accept
credit cards is going to raise the number of members significantly.
I am, however, willing to be proven wrong. Can someone get more
details about what we would need to do to accept cards and how much it
would cost us? I just don't have the time right now to do this.
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srw
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response 23 of 59:
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Dec 31 18:15 UTC 1994 |
Like Dan, I suspect that accepting credit cards isn't going to be worth the
trouble. If someone could show that it wouldn't be any trouble, I'd
feel differently.
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steve
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response 24 of 59:
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Dec 31 21:41 UTC 1994 |
But it sure would be cool to get "impulse buys". ;-) If only money
were free....
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