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Grex > Coop6 > #10: Should Grex be running a POP server? | |
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srw
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Should Grex be running a POP server?
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Sep 23 14:12 UTC 1994 |
The question is should Grex be running a POP server?
What is a POP server? POP is "Post-Office-Protocol" an internet protocol
which permits client mailreaders such as Chameleon and Eudora to access
the mail spool from a server machine. The protocol can only be used over
a TCP/IP connection.
What this would mean is that people who wanted to access Grex only for mail
and whose desktop machines were on the internet (either directly by LAN or
by modem with SLIP or PPP) would have the ability to read and send their
Grex mail without logging into Grex.
Here is an argument put forward in favor of this by user "safi", who
only uses Grex for mail:
> Installing POP software on the server will reduce the amount of people
> loggin in to grex to check their mail. Hope the staff will get the time
> needed to install this software, I'm sure all grex members will be happy
> to have a better performance and less traffic.
Indeed, there will be fewer resources used, as all mail accessed this way will
by read and composed off-line without consuming resources. the only significant
resources consumed would be the net bandwidth used to move their mail
between Grex and their desktop machine. This bandwidth would have been used
anyway, if they read their mail by telnetting to Grex and running
elm/Pine/mail.
There are other considerations. Implementation consideration, as I understand
them are as folows:
(1) The POP software itself is readily available.
(2) it needs to be modified to be compatible with our shadow password system.
This requires staff time, which is not available at the moment, but which
could become available if the disk and passwd software difficulties
can be put behind us.
Possible relevant facts:
I have also learned, from a friend at um computing club that the umcc
does not have a POP server either, but he is investigating the
possibility. There is a functioning POP server on the M-net system.
I am sure some people will say that perhaps Grex doesn't want to
cater to people who only want to use it for email. This point of
view may have some merit, but I am inclined to compare it with our
willingess to support uucp connections to folks with Unix machines,
so that they can process mail on their own machines.
One factor that gives me a little concern is that its use would be limited
to those people who already have desktop machines on the internet.
Maybe I'm just jealous because I would not be able to use this system.
Anyway the bottom line is that whether we install such a server or not is a
policy question, and we always discuss that type of question here in "coop",
so this is the place to voice your opinion as to whether you think Grex
should run a POP server.
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| 131 responses total. |
steve
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response 1 of 131:
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Sep 23 20:02 UTC 1994 |
I think I just heard the link modem squeal.
What this would do, I think, is to put even more of a load
on what is already "The Worlds Most Abused Internet SLIP Link"
(tm) and would make us just that much slower.
Given that, if there are good reasons for supporting this,
then we should go ahead with it.
But does this help Grex's mission? Would this help foster
our sense of community? Would this help others we can't help
now?
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rcurl
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response 2 of 131:
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Sep 23 20:47 UTC 1994 |
Those that log in now to just read and send mail don't contribute to "our
sense of community". My impression is that it would be "neutral" with
respect to both resources and community, unless it taps a new community
wanting just this service. It seems to me, though, that most people use a
variety of services, and this would only be a convenience for a few of
those. What fraction of total users' time is grex community related,
anyway? (What fraction os users' time is in Picospan?)
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scg
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response 3 of 131:
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Sep 23 22:47 UTC 1994 |
Or party?
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raven
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response 4 of 131:
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Sep 23 23:30 UTC 1994 |
I for one would support a POP server it would be nice to be able to
hAve my Mac front end when i sent e-mail. Just because we had a mail server
does not mean that I would stop loggin in for conferencing usenetting etc.
Ofcourse I would like a virtual slip connection using TIA through a
UNIX shell, but I' told that violates our contract with ICNet. It seems to
me that a POP server is similar because it does require a PPP or slip
connection does it not?
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scg
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response 5 of 131:
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Sep 24 02:06 UTC 1994 |
(I think the idea with the POP server was that people would have to get
their PPP connection somewhere else.)
I'll admit it -- I started using Grex because I wanted a mail
site. It was only after several months of doing mail here that I finally
began to explore the conferences (vidar dragged me into bbs) and started
conferencing. It is because of that that I believe that even if Grex does
want every user to be conferencing, it still makes sense to offer other
resources that would attract them. Things like offering mail, as well as
offering other Internet access or the Unix shell, do draw users here who
may later decide to become "part of the community."
I do see a bit of a difference between all these things and the
POP server, though. While just about everything else Grex offers requires
people to actually log into our computer, making it very simple for them
to start looking through conferences on a whim, the POP server wouldn't do
that. With the POP server they would almost never even have to see
anything other than the front end on their own computer. I don't think it
would have nearly the same power to draw people into conferences.
That doesn't make it all bad. There is the other view of Grex --
that Grex is a community computing resource that can be used for lots of
things other than conferencing. While I would like to see conferencing
remain by far Grex's main focus, Grex does offer lots of useful non
conferencing related things as a community service, and I would like to
see that continue. The POP server idea would be an example of a good
community service to provide, even if it doesn't end up drawing people to
the conferences.
That leaves only the question of necessity. What percentage of
the people out there who have Internet connections for their PCs don't
have access to a POP server?
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rcurl
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response 6 of 131:
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Sep 24 04:29 UTC 1994 |
I run Archie, Telnet, TurboGopher, Mosaic, Fetchk and ARNS clients from
my laptop. It isn't quite the same as "logging in" to a host, but one
does realize that one *is* somewhere else, even if the interface is very
local. Maybe POP is at the low end of seeing the nature of the host, but
one would know one is close to something more "human" than a mail reader.
Can a POP server produce a motd to users, to say a little about the
nature of grex? That would help encourage the transition that Steve
describes, without forcing anything.
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carson
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response 7 of 131:
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Sep 24 09:59 UTC 1994 |
I imagine that anyone who would want to use such a service via Grex will
have to find out about it SOMEHOW, and I bet that it would be through
conferencing...
not only that, but newuser would probably have to be run in order to
create a password for the account, correct?
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srw
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response 8 of 131:
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Sep 24 15:28 UTC 1994 |
Correct on both counts, Carson. However, there would be no need to
see the motd after that first login.
Wait, I know... Accounts used only by non-members for POP mail will expire
every 3 months unless they log in. That would expose them to at least
the motd 4 or 5 times a year.
Perhaps we could find an automated way to advertise Grex's services by email
to users of POP mail. Perhaps our reaping policy should include sending them
email at least a week befor reaping, which would warn of the impending reap
(and advertise that there are cool things on Grex via telnet.)
Some are .forawrding their mail to m-net, where they can get at it via POP
today (as we "speak").
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rcurl
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response 9 of 131:
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Sep 24 19:12 UTC 1994 |
Why don't they just have their mail *sent* to m-net, and skip the middleman?
(And save us bandwidth.)
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carson
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response 10 of 131:
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Sep 24 22:03 UTC 1994 |
because Grex is cooler...
There's also the question of bandwidth vs. diskspace. Anyone who would
use the POP, if I understand correctly, would be using it to take mail
*off* of Grex, i.e., removing their mail from our hard drive to
theirs. Considering some of the problems we've had with mail space, I
think this idea is worth *at least* looking into.
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srw
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response 11 of 131:
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Sep 25 06:34 UTC 1994 |
Dunno, Rane. Lots of people have accounts on both systems.
If they only want them for mail, this doesn't make sense.
If they want other stuff, then it does, and so does forwarding mail.
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rcurl
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response 12 of 131:
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Sep 25 07:04 UTC 1994 |
I do that myself with other systems, but I have the .forward in the
system where I received the least of my mail.
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davel
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response 13 of 131:
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Sep 25 19:52 UTC 1994 |
Re #8: Steve, are you sure that logins would get expired if accessed only
through POP? I have no direct information, but I kind of suspect that
a POP connection would show up as a login for those purposes. ftp logins,
for example, show up, I trust that the POP server checks your password
& all that.
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srw
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response 14 of 131:
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Sep 26 00:35 UTC 1994 |
Well the POP server certainly checks your pw. That's the part of the server
that would have to be modified for our purposes. You have an excellent
point. I really don't know that. I was assuming you actually needed to
log in (as via telnet or rlogin) and had no idea ftp updated the last
login. Perhaps Marcus will know the answer to that, as he's familiar
with the source code for the POP server.
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srw
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response 15 of 131:
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Sep 26 00:49 UTC 1994 |
Here's an update on the situation at UMCC (U of M computing club).
A friend of mine asked them what the chances were of installing a POP server
there. Their response was quite negative. Two reasons were cited:
(1) that the password system was non-standard and would require kludging
the server to deal with it, and (2) That the UMCC doesn't want to develop
a reputation as a service provider. They have apparently decided that
providing a POP server fits in that category of service.
Issue #1 is equally or more so an issue for us, and it means the expenditure
of staff time we cannot now afford, but we are looking at a longer term
question in this item.
Issue #2 is in my opinion the heart of what we are deciding here.
Does a POP server provide a category of service that is beyond what
Grex should be providing?
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steve
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response 16 of 131:
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Sep 26 02:34 UTC 1994 |
WIth the diameter of our current Internet pipe, yes, it is
beyond us.
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safi
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response 17 of 131:
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Sep 26 04:21 UTC 1994 |
Hello there. My name is Samer (Sam) and I'm the one who propose this enhancment
to grex. I do like Steven Gibbard's response. I joint grex primerly for
emaand I just joined recently. But Not a week later and I'm conferencing with
you. POP is a very convience way to check your email from home through mail
program such as eudura or chameleon with out logging into your account. These
programs will give a flag when a mail is present. Now if there's a pop server
or not, those who joined just to read their mail and they have no interest in
any other internet activity. They will telnet to grex and occupy a band just
to read their mail. Just for those, the pop server will be benefical for grex
user, because there will be less people loggin in to grex. And also will be
benefical for grex user who are concern about reading their mail on time, as
long as their mail program is running in minimize state. Sorry if there's
typing errors, I didn't know how to use the editor very good It looks like vi
and act like vi but my cursor wan't move up. I hope I make my point clear.
Thanks
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srw
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response 18 of 131:
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Sep 26 04:38 UTC 1994 |
I am puzzled, STeve, by your position. Why would a POP server produce
more data for the link to carry than a telnet session?
In addition, Sam makes the point that by not being logged in, there
are certain resources that are not used. Think of all the demand put
on Grex by those who run pine to see their mail, and stay logged into
it while composing online.
Perhaps it could be argued that the presence of a POP server would encourage
people who are not otherwise doing so to use Grex for mail. That
additional mail usage would affect the link, presumably, but we are
happy today to allow users to get free accounts to do internet mail via
telnet.
Don't misread my motivation - it's mostly devil's advocate.
I'm quite neutral about this because I don't think we know enough yet
about what effect it might have. I just think that the effect could
as easily be goood as bad.
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davel
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response 19 of 131:
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Sep 26 10:21 UTC 1994 |
I *think* the likely problem is a large increase in the number of *high-
volume* mail users - mailing lists, large files, whatever - who use us
just because POP makes us convenient, for that one purpose.
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jdg00
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response 20 of 131:
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Sep 26 11:41 UTC 1994 |
I use a server at work for NNTP and POP services. Other than logging on to
that server to change my password every few months, and having the server's
account as my e-mail address, I don't feel like a "user" of it at all.
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carson
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response 21 of 131:
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Sep 26 12:30 UTC 1994 |
re #19: I don't think trying to pull large volumes of mail over the
clogged artery we call our link would be all that convenient,
but I see you point. I guess the flip side to that argument is
that POP would make it easier for users to pull mail off of
Grex, thereby freeing up diskspace.
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popcorn
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response 22 of 131:
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Sep 26 14:07 UTC 1994 |
I'm not totally sure about this, but changing the POP server to use
Grex's password system *might* be as simple as linking in the shadow
password libraries instead of the usual Sun libraries. Or maybe not.
Socially, I say go for it. Let's try out a POP server and see how
it works. Let's not advertise it as a service we provide, but, like
when people ask for uucp connections, it's there if people want it.
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steve
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response 23 of 131:
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Sep 27 00:09 UTC 1994 |
STeve, Dave hit the nail on the head with #19. It allows people
to use Grex "from afar" rather than "locally". So we could have
(and WILL have) people sucking up mail files from Grex who never
get on Grex interactively.
Is this what we want on Grex? While I'd *like* to be able to
offer pop service, I think we need to think of Internet using
resources in terms of what it does for the community of Grex.
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srw
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response 24 of 131:
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Sep 27 02:48 UTC 1994 |
OK, STeve, but it sounds like the theory is that we keep mail inconvenient,
at least to the extent of making people log on to Grex in order to get it.
There is some validity to the arguments that we want mail users to feel
like they're part of Grex, yet there's something about that strategy that
has a disturbing ring to me.
Since the argument is based on supposed behavior of users, I wonder whether
we can get any confirmation or rejection of your hypothesis by checking
in with the folks at M-net, who have put up a POP server.
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