response 1 of 42:

Mar 30 09:31 UTC 1995

Why no responses for such a good item?

response 3 of 42:

Mar 31 13:00 UTC 1995

agora is too big for me to sift through so I go to the conferances that
interest me.  Perhaps there shoud be a menu from which one can select
a new conferance once logged in and after reading, fixing or forgetting
all the items in a current conferance.  Perhaps something like that would
get more activity out here?

response 5 of 42:

Apr 3 02:23 UTC 1995

I made very few consumption mistakes while growing up, because I
didn't have any money.  I did buy a few used books that I regretted
later; this taught me that "all that glitters is not gold" (if I
didn't already know).
As for the next generation, it's too complicated to go into in
the little time I have for Grexing ...  but in general, I'm usually
just trying to get him to *think* about purchases beforehand.

response 7 of 42:

Mar 20 01:46 UTC 1998

I have come to realize that being a nonconsumer, which takes much less money,
is just as much fun as being a consumer.  There is not limit to the amount
of fun you can have.  So how do I be a non-consumer?  I don't think I would
have become one voluntarily.  It's something that I happened into out of
necessity and then developed the skills that I continue to expand on. 
Bartering (for food, I help plant and dig potatoes), voluntary simplicity (a
simpler cheaper way to do the same thing, such as bike instead of drive, or
wear used clothing).  I stopped using a power lower, went to a quiet mower,
then planted a garden (and then stopped weeding the garden, that makes my life
a lot simpler, the neighbors can't figure out what is intentional).  I do my
repairs, and try not to own things I can't repair.  I educate myself on how
to maintain my bicycles and to scavenge parts of abandoned ones.  Scavenging.
Trading with friends, who give me things they don't need.  All these things
require little or no money, and I don't have to pay for amusement because I
am too busy enjoying being a nonconsumer.  (And it keeps the taxes down.)

response 9 of 42:

Mar 20 21:22 UTC 1998

I don't consider that we are part of a consumer society.  We don't drive the
economy by reusing things that would have gone to the dump.  Or maybe we are
driving it backwards by fixing them and giving thm away for reuse.

response 11 of 42:

Mar 21 01:52 UTC 1998

In TUrkey it seems that nothing is thrown away.  The cars there looked like
they had been made in the 40s, with improvised repair parst, and the harbor
was full of sailing ships converted to diesel.  It is very different from our
affluent society.  The hotel I stayed in sometimes had hot water, if the
owner's young son was able to find a store selling LP gas that morning.  Most
of what is thrown out here would be valued highly there.  Will be here too,
some day soon.  In Yugoslavia new clothes were worn to go out, and you changed
to old ones when you came back in.  The biggest deal was to have a new looking
coat to cover what was under it.  Nobody would have dreamed of wearing torn
or patched clothing in public, it would be assumed to be out of necessity.

response 13 of 42:

Mar 23 00:27 UTC 1998

Actually, the answer to many of your questions is yes.
A friend of ours is generating electricity by wind and solar, and plans to
sell us some via the grid when that becomes possible.
We are building a house with enough insulation that most of the heat wil comme
from the glassed-in porch.
We do not buy light bulbs.  We find them in thrown-out refrigerators.  If you
use the type of lamp with a reflector, 40-watt bulbs work fine.  I found
several of these lamps by the curb in need of repair.
I don't normally purchase books but use the library, saves paper.
I have made soap from to-be-discarded fat froma butcher, but I bought lye.
I save seeds and trade them with other growers, and we try to grow most of
our food, or help friends grow it for us.
We don't use animals for anything that I can think of.
I don't sew clothing, there is already so much thrown out at the curb that
I can fix (with needles that I did not make, of course).
I work at home, via computer (bought in 1985, upgraded a bit).
My bike was put together out of parts from discarded bikes, but a new seat,
after I tried biking on a long trip on the old one.
We take in a lot more trash than the little bit of cellophane and plastic that
we put out (mostly from stuff we could not fix that we took in).
My body is being donated to science, minus usable organs.
We minimize heat consumption by dressing very warmly, any foods we buy tend
to come in 50-pound recyclable bags.
Perfection is of course unattainable, as you noted.
Food wastes are composted, paper recycled or written on the back of first.
My memory is not perfect, did I miss much?  This is getting interesting!

response 15 of 42:

Mar 23 02:13 UTC 1998

But we are trying to avoid increasing the amount of nonrenewable resources
being consumed.  We consume things that were on their way to the dump, or that
are renewable, such as solar power (of course the silicon solar sells are
manufactured, but silicon is pretty common stuff, and in theory it should be
possible to set up a plant to make them using solar energy).  The problem with
getting electricity from the friend is that they would probably pay him only
about 2 cents/kWh, and charge us close to 10.  Most of hte electricity from
Detroit Edison is not solar, but we are contributing $7/month to get 42
cents/month or so worth of power from their new collectors west of town (at
about 4 cents/kWh).  The problem with generating your own in the city is that
there is shade, and you need battery storage, the expensive part.  Better for
what is produced to be sent to where it is being used.
(Got a telegram, by for now.)

response 17 of 42:

Mar 23 04:40 UTC 1998

Is that from the manufacture of Silicon? Or from the manufacture of 
chips from silicon, which requires photoresist, etc?

response 19 of 42:

Mar 23 18:23 UTC 1998

Patrick, can you tell us more about what equipment is used to produce
solar power, and how many square feet of sunny area you estimated would be
needed to supply a certain amount of power in a Michigan December?

It should in theory be possible to recycle the nasty solvents, which would
also reduce the environmental impact of making the solvents.  Some day the
earth will have to be treated as a closed system, except for the input
of solar energy (which is good for at least a few more of our lifetimes).
You can't just keep using up things like water, air and soil.

Forgot to mention that we intercepted 1500 concrete blocks on their way to
the dump (most from the old county building - the workers there helped us to
load them up, and from a school being knocked down, where we pulled them out
of the rubble and nearly got stopped,b ut I had to point out that since we
were already loaded up and had not hurt ourselves, we were far more likely
to be injured by returning the blocks, which was their worry).  We also got
our rebar from a downtown construction site, where it had been left outside
the fence for a few weeks because it had gotten twisted (we got permission)
- we carried it home one Sunday morning on two bikes, and untwisted it.  And
we have fished out at least a ton of used lumber (had to pull the nails) and
drywall (we needed small pieces) and copper pipe.  This is far more than I
can contribute to the dump in my lifetime, which would have been balanced
anyway by what we get at the curb and put back into use.

I don't consider services to be something consumed, in the sense of used up.
Anyway, our dentists are definitely renewable resources, with 3 kids.
Proper diet and exercise are ways to avoid needing a doctor.

response 21 of 42:

Mar 23 19:10 UTC 1998

        I'll check with a manufacurer as to hazardous materials. Michigan
winters are low power pruducers for solar. You need a large battery to carry
you through extended cloudy days. I will probably add a small wind charger
to supplement rather than the hydrocarbon fueled generators most people use.

response 23 of 42:

Mar 24 01:39 UTC 1998

The problem with solar in Michigan is the cloudy winters.  Most of my electric
consumption is in the winter.  In the summer I don't need lighting, the days
are longer, and I don't need heating, and I don't bake much because I only
bake in cold weather.  My summer electric bills are about $7/month, plus the
solar contributions of $7/month.  I figure for this amount it is not worth
investing in panels and batteries which would probably require more energy
to build (batteries wear out over time) than they would save by use.


re #20.  The only times in the past twenty years I have seen a doctor, I would
have been better off not wasting the money - a ripped tendon (the doctor
refused to answer my questions and just told me to go spend $2000 on physical
therapy, I consulted a friend who teaches therapeutic massage instead;  a
poison-ivy type allergy that the resident decided was due to black walnuts
- it was actually gingko, I looked it up;  actually, I benefited from calling
a doctor friend about fleabites and beestings, but would have survived).  You
can avoid circulatory problems, respiratory problems, and the like by eating
properly and biking for transportation, not smoking or drinking, etc.

We are enjoing the scavenger lifestyle, and realize that not everyone can be
a scavenger, but think that products should not be replaced so often when they
could be repaired, or built to last in the first place.