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keesan
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Record Companies
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Apr 12 01:49 UTC 1999 |
While eliminating multiple recordings of some compositions from my LP
collection, I realized that certain record companies tend to have better
quality recordings than others (although of course the musicians have a lot
to do with it). I have the opportunity to sample the Kiwanis LP collection
and rather than listening to five different versions of Dvorak's New World
Symphony, would like other people's opinions on which companies are likely
to have produced the best recordings. From my own collection I can list:
Archiv, Deutsche Grammophon, Supraphon (Czech), Nonesuch, London, Turnabout
Vox, Phillips, Angel, Seraphim, Columbia, Capitol, RCA Victor.
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| 74 responses total. |
md
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response 1 of 74:
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Apr 12 04:28 UTC 1999 |
My recollection is that during the 1950s the London FFRR
and FFSS LPs had excellent sound quality. Phillips and
Angel released some superb-sounding LPs in the 1960s and
1970s. Columbia seemed awfully variable throughout the
enire period, but they had some first-rate artists recording
for them. Same with RCA Victor. Later on, Telarc and the
other digital LP makers came along.
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davel
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response 2 of 74:
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Apr 12 11:21 UTC 1999 |
OTOH, as you're sampling *used* disks you'd be very well advised to listen
for scratches, overplaying, etc. The best recording, poorly treated, will
be no bargain.
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keesan
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response 3 of 74:
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Apr 12 12:50 UTC 1999 |
I discovered that problem with an otherwise very nice recording of Brahms
Variations on a Theme by Haydn, Eugene Ormandy and the Philadelphia Symphony
Orchestra. It was played with a lot more feeling than the Utrecht Symphony
Orchestra under Paul Hupperts (Musical Masterworks Society) but was full of
popping sounds. You can see the scratches. FOr some reason people usually
seem to put the paper jackets in the records with the open side facing out
so they also collect dust.
I got the same impression of Columbia and RCA Victor.
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keesan
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response 4 of 74:
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Apr 12 18:32 UTC 1999 |
How would I go about choosing between Brahms Symphony #3 on Deutsche Grammophon
with Herbert von Karajan and the Berlin Philharmonic, and Columbia Masterworks
with Bruno Walter and the Philharmonic Symphony Orchestra of New York?
Both in good condition. Or Rachmaninoff Concerto #2 by Columbia Masterworks
(which seems to be their high-end series) with Leonard Bernstein and the NY
Philharmonic or Seraphim with Erich Leinsdorf and the LA Philharmonic? What
are the better orchestras and conductors? (Pre-CD)
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md
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response 5 of 74:
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Apr 12 21:44 UTC 1999 |
Keep both of the Brahmses if you can. If I had to pick only one
of them, it would be Karajan, but you should listen to them both
and decide for yourself. The Bernstein Rachmaninoff has to be
better than the Leinsdorf, however.
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keesan
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response 6 of 74:
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Apr 13 03:41 UTC 1999 |
I kept both Brahms because they had different things on the other side, but
am now down to one each Academic Festival Overture, Hungarian Dances, and
Variations on Haydn (down from 2 or 3). Both # 3s also sounded good so I was
glad to have an excuse not to have to choose one. The Hungarian Dances were
just not the same on piano as full orchestra, that was an easy choice.
Are there any record companies that should be avoided?
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keesan
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response 7 of 74:
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Apr 13 16:27 UTC 1999 |
Okay, how do I choose between Mendelssohn's Concerto in E Minor for Violin
and Orchestra: Netherlands Philharmonic, Louis Kaufman violinist and Otto
Ackerman conductor (Musical Masterworks Society) and Royal Philharmonic
Orchestra, Sir Thomas Beecham conducting, Jascha Heifetz (RCA Victor)? I
actually liked the Netherlands Philharmonic better but the record is full of
popping sounds and I don't see any scratches or dirt. Can records be cleaned
wtih some common household chemical? (Dish detergent, isopropyl alcohol)
I have been wiping them with a clean handkerchief. Is this bad?
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md
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response 8 of 74:
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Apr 13 21:08 UTC 1999 |
There used to be various cleaning solutions and apparatus
available for vinyl but I never see it anymore. You are
probably safe using some mild soap and lukewarm water,
as long as you thoroughly rinse and dry the LP. Be gentle!
The performance and recording you like the sound of best
is the one you should keep. Beecham/Heifetz would have
been my choice, not having heard either one, but it could very
well be that Kaufman/Ackerman is better.
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davel
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response 9 of 74:
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Apr 14 11:37 UTC 1999 |
In cleaning LPs it is very easy to add scratches by rubbing the dust/dirt
across the surface, or to drive grunge down into the grooves.
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keesan
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response 10 of 74:
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Apr 14 22:36 UTC 1999 |
I washed off the Mendelssohn with the popping sounds in dilute sodium
alphabenzene sulfonate (our one-ingredient dishwashing detergent) and rinsed
it, wiping lightly with my hands, and propped it at an angle to dry. It
looked dry after ten minutes but took an hour to dry the water out of the
grooves. This eliminated most of the popping sounds. I have decided to keep
both versions of Mendelssohn concerto and moved some records to the top of
my other bookcase with a couple heavy books at one end.
I definitely preferred Bernstein's Rachmaninoff.
How would you choose between Beethoven's 7th Symphony by George Szell
and the Cleveland Orchestra, Columbia Odyssey, or Andre Previn Conducting
London Symphony, Angel record (manuf. by Capitol Records, EMI Records
Limited). I did not know Angel = Capitol = EMI, did one buy out the others?
The Columbia Odyssey version was previously released on Epic BC 1066 and
Columbia M7X 30281 - is Epic another branch of Columbia? How many different
record companies were around in their heyday and how many now?
Now the Beecham Mendelssohn has popping sounds. Back to the sink.
What does a worn needle look like? (Diamond).
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md
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response 11 of 74:
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Apr 15 11:24 UTC 1999 |
By the time Previn started conducting I already
had recordings of most of the stuff he recorded,
so I made his acquaintance on just an LP or two.
I don't even know what his reputation is as a
conductor. (To me, he'll always be the pianist
from the '50s jazz group Shelley Mann and His
Friends.)
Szell is another blank spot to me. Sorry.
I don't have much of what he recorded and I'm
not crazy about what I do ahve. He did a so-so
recording of Bartok's Concerto for Orchestra. My
favorite Beethoven's 7th is Toscanini conducting
the NBC symphony orchestra. The 7th used to be
my single favorite piece of music.
Many record shops used to have a microscope for
examining styli. You probably won't see that
anymore. What I would do is start with a new
stylus and follow the manufacturer's guidelines
for hours of play.
Air-drying is probably okay as long as you rinse
the LP obsessively before you set it out. The
manufacturers used to recommend wiping dry with a
soft cloth, always in the direction of the grooves,
not across them. That might be better, as it would
lessen the amount of deposits in the grooves of
whatever minerals you have in your water.
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keesan
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response 12 of 74:
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Apr 15 14:20 UTC 1999 |
We have magnifying glasses but don't know what to look for.
Sounds like the performers are what to look for, not the record company, but
I get the impression some companies record better performers.
I kept the Szell as it was scratch free, Previn was not. That is what I get
for acquiring most of my collection from the curb after yard sales.
I will wipe with a clean hanky, I had noticed a pattern left by the drying
and we do have calcium in the water (added at the purification plant).
Next choice is Vivaldi's Four Seasons: Argo/Academy of St. Martin/Marriner
or Vanguard/I Solisti di Zagreb/Antonio Janigro.
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md
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response 13 of 74:
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Apr 15 17:47 UTC 1999 |
Those are both excellent. Sounds like you picked up
some nice stuff on the curb there, keesan.
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md
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response 14 of 74:
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Apr 15 18:05 UTC 1999 |
Re stylus wear, I remember seeing very high power magnifications
of new and used styli years ago. The new ones had rounded tips
and the ones that needed replacing had wedge-shaped tips. You
might be able to discern the difference in a big enough magifier.
A badly worn stylus can tear your LPs up pretty good. Also, the
weight of the tone arm has to be adjusted to the lightest weight that
can track smoothly without skipping. This will make your styli and
your LPs last longer. (I have LPs that are pushing 50.) The actual
diamond part of the stylus is at the very tip and is the size of a grain
of sand. You need to inspect it from several angles at very high
magnification.
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davel
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response 15 of 74:
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Apr 16 11:19 UTC 1999 |
Sindi, use distilled water.
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rcurl
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response 16 of 74:
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Apr 16 17:33 UTC 1999 |
Incidentally (re #12), no net calcium is added to the water at
the treatment plant. Lime (Ca(OH)2) is used to precipitate
temporary hardness (Ca(HCO3)2), but the result is that there is
*much* less calcium in the water after treatment than before. There
is still a little.
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keesan
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response 17 of 74:
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Apr 18 16:03 UTC 1999 |
Thank you Rane. I will not worry about the water, but thanks Dave. Michael,
we spent two hours putting the best parts of two Dual turntables together for
one of our volunteers, and they decided that the wedge-shaped needle was
better because the rounded-tip one tended to skate and there must have been
something wrong with it. I will tell Jim. But I would think that the needle
is more likely to get blunted than sharpened, considering that the tip is what
contacts the vinyl. We really ought to know about these things if we sell
turntables. Jim has figured out how to weigh and adjust the arm. Would any
of you like to come in to Kiwanis and explain to us how to tell good from bad
turntables and needles? Hm, does the tip contact the vinyl or is it the
sides? How does this work?
Five versions of Dvorak's New World Symphony at Kiwanis. I take
records down in the cellar to listen to while we work there, as there is poor
radio reception when your ceiling is at ground level. Seems like one record
out of twenty at Kiwanis is Tijuana Brass. We had 40 minutes of rousing
marches around 2 am this morning, while finishing a couple computers.
What is the story about elliptical versus rounded needles?
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md
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response 18 of 74:
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Apr 18 17:53 UTC 1999 |
I am so over my head on that. I've always believed the
wedge-shaped needles were the worn-out ones.
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rcurl
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response 19 of 74:
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Apr 18 18:35 UTC 1999 |
The tip contacts and rides on the sides of the groove, so that the
groove can wiggle it back and forth, which is what stresses the
crystal and produces the piezoelectric signal that goes to the
amplifier. The needles therefore wear on their wides, making them
wedge shaped. This creates some sharp edges, which then begin shaving
vinyl off the grooves.
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krj
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response 20 of 74:
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Apr 19 16:23 UTC 1999 |
If I ran the world, I would separate out the LP tech-talk discussion from
the music & label discussion... :)
If I were Sindi, I would go buy a VPI 16.5 record washing machine; I think
they are still made for the audiophile market. Best record cleaner I
ever saw; the only problem was that it cost about $500, so I don't think
it fits into Sindi's lifestyle. I was about ready to buy one when the
compact disc came along and made the idea of a record washing machine
seem kind of irrelevant. Hi Fi Buys used to have one of these machines
and for a buck they would wash any LP you brought in, and I revived quite
a few dirty LPs this way; but Hi Fi Buys has been out of business for
years.
What I would recommend for the routine pre-play cleaning of LPs is a
carbon fiber brush. I just saw an LP dealer on the net who stocked them
as of a few weeks ago... I wonder where I bookmarked that page.
I will look for it. In the meantime, take a look at
http://www.nviclassical.com for all sorts of LP accessories,
including stocks of an out-of-print book on how to set up turntables.
I believe the old handheld Discwasher brushes are still in production.
I used those for many years and still find mine useful for attacking
a really messy record, because you can use more force with it than you
can with the carbon fiber brush.
Stylus geometry is kind of complicated, and I'm probably going to
mess this up. In the discussions above, the word "wedge" is being
used to describe two different things. One is a stylus which has
been designed to have a non-spherical shape, and the other is a
stylus which was once spherical but has been worn into a "wedge"
shape.
The stylii which were designed to be non-spherical were usually called
"elliptical" or "hyperelliptical." The spherical stylus would only
touch the walls of the record groove at two small points as the stylus
floated along in the groove; the elliptical designs were shaped to
increase the area of contact between stylus and groove, thus minimizing
wear. Stylus design was pretty much a function of price; my vague
memory was that $20-$30 would get a spherical stylus, $50-$100 an
elliptical, and $150 and up would be a hyperelliptical.
The rule of thumb was that a diamond phono stylus should be replaced
after 1000 hours of use. In the LP era, I would buy a new stylus every
12-18 months. Usually I could hear the stylus wear in the music as a
sort of harsh distortion in the high frequencies.
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krj
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response 21 of 74:
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Apr 19 17:28 UTC 1999 |
Found it! The Pickering carbon fiber record cleaning brush, CFB-80,
is offered for $10 from http://www.garage-a-records.com
I have never shopped with them, but I'd gamble $10 to get one of
those Pickering brushes. I have used one for most of a decade and
I recommend it. Garage-a-records also lists a "Hunt" brand carbon
fiber brush which costs $25 and looks interesting.
Another good investment would be the Discwasher SC-2 stylus brush.
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keesan
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response 22 of 74:
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May 2 14:58 UTC 1999 |
Thanks for all your suggestions, but I will stick with water and detergent
for a while, on my records, which cost me no more than 50 cents each. Blowing
the dust off first also helps. We sold the Dual turntable with the round
needle in it with a clean conscience. Running out of working phonos, the last
one someone wanted to buy, the diamond was no longer in it, they get knocked
off easily.
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keesan
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response 23 of 74:
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May 2 15:02 UTC 1999 |
Still sorting through duplicates. I chose in one case on the basis of
nationality (Russian Melodiya record company), in another case Mendelssohn's
Songs Without Words with two extra songs on it compared to the one I did not
keep, and then there was a piano concerto played by (a) Van Cliburn (no
mention of which orchestra) and (b) Eugene Ormandy and the Philadelphia
Symphony. On the first record you could hear the piano and little else.
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keesan
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response 24 of 74:
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May 3 01:34 UTC 1999 |
More choices:
Mendelssohn's Violin Concerto in E Major, 'Heifetz plays...Sir Thomas Beecham
Royal Philharmonic Orchestra; Ruggiero Ricci violin, Mathhias Kuntszch
conductor, Philharmonica Hungarica Reinhard Peters Conductor; Louis Kaufman
violinist Otto Ackermann conductor Netherlands Philharmonic Orchestra.
They all sound wonderful but I am leaning towards the Heifetz
Dvorak 16 Slavonic Dances: Antal Dorati Minneapolis Symphony Orchestra;
Dvorak Slovanske Tance Vaclav Neumann Czech Philharmonic Orchestra
Rossini Overtures: Czech Philharmonic Gaetono Delogu
Six Favorite Overtures, E. G. Asensio and the English Chamber Orchestra
Faure Requiem: Paris Philharmonic Chorus and Orchestra, Rene Leibowitz
Faure Requiem: Phillippe Caillard Chorale, The National Orchestra of the
Monte Carlo Opera, Louis Fremaux
Faure Requiem: Jocelyn Chamonin and George Abdoun soloists, Chorale des
Jeunesses Musicales de France, Orchestre des Concerts Colone, Louis Martini
(I could have made the choice easier by getting a tape of the performance that
I was once in). I have not heard of any of the above orchestra, have you?
Oops, one more Mendelssohn: Philharmonia Orchestra Leon Barzin. Which two
would you keep out of the four?
Handel Fireworks and Water Music: English Chamber Orchestra Johannes Somary,
or Eugene Ormandy and Philadelphia Orchestra or Vienna State Opera Orchestra
Beethoven's Ninth Symphony: Bruno Walter and the New York Philharmonic or
Netherlands Philharmonic under Walter Goehr.
This assumes they are all relatively unscratched.
Eugene Ormandy seems to do an excellent job conducting anything.
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