response 1 of 128:

Mar 24 15:41 UTC 1998

Well it looks like my 1987 Sable is starting to act up again.  Ever since
I bought it used it has had a nasty habit of getting into snits where it
stalls.  This will most often happen after having been driven 20-25 minutes.
The telltale sign of trouble is when it starts to buck; you can see the tach
needle dip toward zero before bouncing back.  The agony can be prolonged if
I slip into neutral and rev the engine while at stoplights.  But it's a good
bet that if I'm not about to reach my destination, I'm in trouble.  And forget
about driving the car again for an hour or two.

The latest trick it's pulling is after it's stalled for the 3rd or so time,
when you try to start it, the starter/engine don't even turn over.  On the
surface it would seem like a dead battery (which I have on occasion caused
by trying to start the car after a stalling fit), but it's not:  After 
sitting for a half hour or so, the car will start just fine.

A sure fire way to induce stalling is to enter stop-an-go driving conditions
for any extended period of time.  All this "stalls after being driven awhile
starts again after resting" behavior suggests some heat-related problem.  At
the same time I wonder about the electrical system.  I've taken to not using
the fan, heater, and radio just in case (irrational, I know!).

The dealerships I've taken it to haven't been able to do anything concrete
or lasting about this problem.  Naturally it's not gonna act up after only
having been driven a mile to the garage.

So, any ideas about the source of this behavior?  The "won't turn over" 
phenomenon?  Are there any knowledge bases on the 'net/'web that catalog
symptoms like these and suggest possible causes?  I'd like to go to the
garage (it's inevitable that I will/must) with something concrete next time.

response 3 of 128:

Mar 24 20:13 UTC 1998

        Sounds to me like an interrmittant open. It happens whe the component
is hot. Try an electrical (auto) repair. Find one that will agree to check
it at the appointed time and drive it enough to have it happening then.

response 5 of 128:

Mar 24 21:55 UTC 1998

You ought to be able to get a mechanic to take it for a road test.  From
your description, it sounds like if the mechanic drives it around town
for a day, it ought to misbehave (is it this predictable?) There is
little reason for you to be taking your car to a dealership to have it
fixed.  Think about it -- why would the dealership do a good job getting
your very old car to run, when they'd rather sell you a newer car off
their lot?

The battery could still be the cause of the "not starting" problem;
typically, if left alone, batteries will recover their charge, so if
your battery were almost, but not quite dead--say, enough juice for one
start, but not 4 in a row, it might behave just as you describe.  One
tell-tale sign of this is, when you try to start the car, if instead of
turning over, you hear a "click-click-click" sound, that's the starter
relay clicking in, the starter discharging the battery enough that it
can't hold the relay, then the relay popping out, and the battery
regaining enough juice to engage the relay.  Some other things to check
if you suspect a battery problem are the battery clamps, alternator, and
belt.  Of these, the belt is trivial - it should be tight, and not have
any cracks or be frayed, and the inside of the belt should feel slightly
rough - and it should *not* feel glazed.  The alternator is something a
garage can check for you - sometimes they can lose a diode or an open
coil, which causes it to lose efficiency.  It's not uncommon for
batteries to leak a little acid, especially as they get old, and this
acid usually ends up on top of the battery (near the vents), where it
can then attack the battery clamps.  This can cause corrosion in the
clamps, which can then manifest itself in all sorts of ways.  It would
be perfectly believable for it to manifest itself as a thermal
intermittant, which could cause many of the symptoms you describe.

Fortunately, this is easy to check, and correct.  The clamps should
*not* have any white powder or deposits on or near near them.  White
powder is a sure sign of battery acid.  Also, after starting the car,
the battery posts should not get at all warm; if they do, that shows
there's resistance in the clamp, and that's something you want to get
rid of.  This is also easy to fix.  All you need to do is take the
clamps off the battery, clean the clamps and posts until you see lots of
shiny metal in the contact area, wash any dried white deposits off
(distilled water works great for this; don't get the white stuff on your
hands though - it may still be acidic), then put the clamps on, tighten
them so that they're tight and can't be wiggled at all, and coat with
vasoline or grease (to stop any new corrosion from forming).  If the
clamps are heavily corroded it's worth getting new battery cables put in
(this is a cheap thing to do); or, as an emergency measure only, you can
rap the post with shiny bare copper wire and tighten the clamp down
really tight over this (so that the copper digs into the clamp and
battery post).  It's also worth checking the water level in the battery
- even the new "sealed" batteries lose water with age.  It is typically
possible to pry something off the top of the battery to expose the tops
of the cells, and the plates within all cells should be covered with
water.  If they aren't, you can top the cells off with distilled water.
This works well to extend the life of a battery, but eventually, you'll
still need to get a new one.  Batteries last longest if treated well; if
continually allowed to run down, they'll wear out much sooner.

Some other completely unrelated systems to suspect are the cooling, and
oil lubrication systems.  A closed thermostat in the cooling system
could result in overheating; as could low water levels.  A blocked
passage in the engine or radiator could also cause problems.  You
definitely want to rule these out as early as possible; as either spells
the real danger of serious engine damage, which would not be worth
fixing in a car this old.

Another possibility is some sort of fault in the wiring system or the
fuses.  An intermittent here in the ignition circuit might well cause
the "won't start" symptom, and an intermittent elsewhere might result in
the accessories not working problem that you also describe.  One thing
that can cause this problem is a flood - if the car was ever involved in
a flood, it may well work perfectly once removed from the flood, but the
water can cause accellerated corrosion problems in the electrical
circuitry all over the car that may take months or years to manifest
itself.  After a major flood, it is not uncommon for unscrupulous
dealers to ship affected cars to remote areas of the country where
potential buyers won't think to ask if the car had been flooded.  This
is one of many reasons why you want to hire your own mechanic to look at
any car that you are thinking of buying - they can tell you about
problems like this that you might really like to know before you buy.
Even in old cars that were never flooded, problems like this can happen;
the issue here is that salt water can leak in and affect random
connectors or other elements of the electrical system.

Something else to keep in mind, especially with an older car, is that
it's quite possible for you to be experiencing more than one completely
unrelated problem.

response 7 of 128:

Mar 24 23:07 UTC 1998

Thanks for the tips so far!  It's true that the dealership would wanna sell
me a new car, but they also make lotza $ doing repairs/maitenance.  I would
hope that they would have checked at least the obvious things you mentioned,
and ruled them out.  Maybe I hope for too much...

response 9 of 128:

Mar 25 13:40 UTC 1998

Your last mechanic should have checked this, but the *next* one definitely
should check the engine control module (ECM). My Sable also had a problem with
bucking and surging before it died altogether. It was the ECM . . .

response 11 of 128:

Mar 25 18:09 UTC 1998

I checked out the battery & environs, and things looked OK - no telltale signs
of leakage or corrosion.

As far as *engine* overheating, I must take blame for letting fluid levels get
too low.  I can well imagine how an overheated engine would want to stall,
regardless of any electrical system flakiness.  We shall now see if maintain-
ing proper fluid levels mitigates the stalling phenomenon.  Of course this
would have nothing to do with electrical system flakiness, due to heat or
otherwise.

cyclone:  What year was your Sable?  What did you do, if anything, about the
ECM?  Cost?

response 13 of 128:

Mar 26 13:53 UTC 1998

I've got a 1990 Sable. I have a friend who is a mechanic; he diagnosed the
problem, then bought and installed the new ECM all for about $100-$150. For
a competent mechanic it is not hard to diagnose. I believe my mechanic
diagnosed it while it was still in the engine bay, although I believe you can
also remove it yourself and take to Murray's (for instance) for a diagnosis.
Also, FWIW, I believe there may be more than one ECM-type devices in the
Sable, so check 'em all (a call to the local dealership is always good for
some free info if you have any other question).

response 15 of 128:

Mar 28 17:32 UTC 1998

I would also check the fuel filter. My Sable still stalls sometimes (usually
right after starting) and my mechanic has advised we check that out . . .

response 17 of 128:

Mar 29 03:01 UTC 1998

Oh, one tip I learned the hard way:  when replacing the old fuel filter (on
that truck it's in the rear passenger side wheel well area), let the gas run
low in the tank, then remove the gas cap to relieve pressure in the tank.

response 19 of 128:

Apr 27 11:50 UTC 1998

For an engine to run you need three things: Fuel, compression and spark.
You need to figure out which of those things goes away when your
car stops running.  You can assume that compression is OK since first
it runs, then it doesn't then it runs (Cant be sure unless you pull a
plug and crank the engine with a compression tester, however.)  You can
check for spark with a timing light.  Checking for fuel on a car with
fuel injection is something I've never done. Perhaps a wet spark plug.
 
Either way, you say you have electrical problems.  That could cause
all kinds of stuff!  I'll bet your Sable has an electric fuel pump,
electronic fuel injection, and is controlled by a computer.  All
require a stable supply of electricity!  Get you electrical system
working properly!  Get an electrical wiring diagram for your car and
see how the things that stop working are related.  Take apart and 
inspect every wire and connector in the suspect harness.  Be sure
that the crimps from the wire to the contact are good.  You may even
have to resort to jumpering critical items, like the fuel pump, EMC,
etc. directly to the battery (through a fuse) to be sure that they
are getting reliable power.  It is going to be tough but it needs to
be done if you want that car to be reliable.  I sure wouldn't spend
$150 to $200 on an EMC for a car with an unreliable electrical system.
 
It could also be that a fuel line is getting hot and causing the fuel
in that line to vaporize.  You would have to wait a while for things
to cool down before the car would run again.  Make sure that all the
heat shilds are in place and that the fuel lines dont get too close to
the exhaust system or any other hot parts.

response 21 of 128:

May 10 17:23 UTC 1998

Wow.  Albaugh's Sable problems are exactly like the problems I am having
with my 87 Honda Accord, down to the last detail.  It's the same problem:
an intermittent revving and dipping of the tachometer with a corresponding
revving and dipping of the engine, then a stall, and then turning the
ignition key won't even turn the car over.  Also, the same bizarre
behavior in the electrical system.  When I bought the car, the headlights
were out.  When the shop went to replace them, they discovered that the
front-end electrical wiring was "rotted out" and needed to be replaced.
Since then I've had nothing but the same problem.  I've had a complete
tune-up, had both fuel filters changed, etc.  Nothing seems to work.  The
car isn't fuel-injected, which makes the problem even more frustrating.
I've taken the car to P.A.T. in Ann Arbor, and at the moment they're as
baffled as I am by the problem.

response 23 of 128:

May 11 08:28 UTC 1998

   accords have a rubber seal under the carburetor somewhere (might
be under the air cleaner housing) which can cause that intermittent
rev/dip problem if it's torn.  wendy-who's-not-a-grexer's accord has the
same problem, but i haven't gone looking for the seal yet so i don't
know exactly where it is, just the neighborhood to search.