|
|
| Author |
Message |
beeswing
|
|
Paganism... why?
| 
May 20 03:22 UTC 1996 |
It seems that a lot of Grexers I've "met" profess to be Pagans. Growing up
in the Bible Belt, I can't say I came across many self-professing Pagans.
What is a Pagan, anyway? Weere you raised to be one, and is there a church
you go to, much like Christianity? If you were not raised Pagan, how did you
come to be one? What are tenets, if any, of Paganism? Let's talk amongst
ourselves..
|
| 587 responses total. |
beeswing
|
|
response 1 of 587:
|
May 20 03:32 UTC 1996 |
I am curious!
As some of you know, I am a Christian. I became one when I was about 13 or
so. I got saved, meaning that I asked the Lord Jesus Christ to come into my
life and I vowed to serve Him and only HIm. My parents took me to a Baptist
church growing up, but were not overly religious... they just tried to teach
me about good will and kindess and love and all that. I never questioned it
because this was something I'd grown up around, and al my friends came from
Christian homes. I don't ever regret becoming a Christian, and will raise my
children to be Christians, although in the end it will be a decision that is
theirs alone to make. I have dated guys who are not Christians, and it always
failed because we just could not connect on issues. I have friends who are
not Christians, and I respect their views, but if they ask me about my
Christianity i will not hold back from them. I don't feel comfortable forcing
my views on people, although there was a time when I was forceful.
There have been times when I know I could not have gotten through a situation
without the help of God. Sometimes the only thing you can do is pray. I love
knowing that reassurance is there and I have someone to run to... and face
it, we all need to run to someone sometimes.
So... if you are pagan, do you pray? And if so, to whom? Do you have any
rituals? Different holidays? Is there a Pagan church? I don't mean to make
anyone feel weird, it's just I have never met a Pagan that I know of, and
there seem to be a lot of you here.
|
omni
|
|
response 2 of 587:
|
May 20 03:40 UTC 1996 |
I am catholic, but Marlene calls me a pagan. ;)
I don't understand Paganism either. I'd be nowhere without Jesus.
|
popcorn
|
|
response 3 of 587:
|
May 20 04:18 UTC 1996 |
This response has been erased.
|
marcvh
|
|
response 4 of 587:
|
May 20 04:41 UTC 1996 |
"Paganism" collectively refers to a lot of different religions, typically
ones that are older than Christianity. I don't know that it's appropriate
to try to figure "what religious holidays do Pagans follow?" any more
than one might try to determine "what religious holidays do you
monotheists follow?"
|
srw
|
|
response 5 of 587:
|
May 20 08:00 UTC 1996 |
I agree with Marc. Paganism is another word for polytheism, or the worship
of multiple gods. The ancient Greeks, Romans, and Egyptoans were Pagans.
In fact most religions are pagan. The three Western monotheistic
religions being the main exceptions (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam).
My guess is that most of the Pagans on grex are Hindu, but these are not
the ones you are talking about, I suspect.
|
gregc
|
|
response 6 of 587:
|
May 20 10:00 UTC 1996 |
The strict dictionary definition of pagan(which varies somewhat from
dictionary to dictionary) but can be roughly paraphrased as: "Anyone who
does not believe in the Judeo/christian concept of god". By this definition,
buddhists, moslems, taoists, hindis, etc, are all pagans.
Alot of people who use the term "pagan" today are actually refering to a
relatively new movement called "neo-paganism", which is an attempt to
recreate the older, nature based, religions. There is alot of cross-over
between wicca, and the larger umbrella of neo-paganism.
In the ideal, most modern pagan beliefs are clooser to a philosophy than
a religion, in that there is rarely an acknowledgement of any external
diety, and growth and strength are supposed to come from a better
understanding of the self. Dogmatism is heavily frowned upon, as is the
concept of there being one over-riding truth for everyone. The concept
is that everyone has to find their own truth and path. Ie: The concept
of "The truth is all written down in our bible/koran/tora/littlebook/etc,
just read that, and you'll have all the truth you need", is usually
completely rejected. Also, the concept of formalized, "official" ritual
tends to be rejected in preference to ritual that is customized to the
individual/group.
OTOH, my experience has shown that this ideal is rarely seen. Most
modern pagans tend to be disaffected christions who were driven away
by the outdated moral structure of christianity, yet there seems to be
some basic need in the human animal to create and codify rituals and
then practice them over and over. There is also a very strong tendancy
to continue to "pray/whorship/whatever" to an external diety and to ask
him/her/it to solve our problems.
I disagree with srw's statement that: "Paganism is another word for
polytheism". "pagan" is a word that was invented by the christian
religion and means "anybody who doesn't believe in our god". A monotheist,
or an atheist can also, correctly, be called a pagan.
|
janc
|
|
response 7 of 587:
|
May 20 13:29 UTC 1996 |
Seems like the word "Paganism" has something of a wild-card word. A lot
of people read different things into it, and it is an umbrella for a lot of
different faiths. I'm not an expert, and don't regard myself as a neo-pagan,
but I know some neo-pagan groups are definitely theistic, and some are pretty
monotheistic. Goddess worship certainly isn't unusual. I'd say that the
Neo-pagan movement has several major characteristics: (1) they are based on
remanents of pre-Christian European faiths, though their historical basis
is sometimes rather weak; (2) they are often strongly into group rituals;
(3) there is usually a lot of latitude for creativity in developing new
rituals and experimenting with alternative forms of worship; (4) they often
have strong nature-worship themes, with rituals held outdoors and a strong
association between their gods and nature; (5) they have very little
fixed dogma or national hierachy. Each local group evolves it's own rules
and rituals. This is why it is hard to get an answer to questions like
those beeswing asks -- every different group does things differently. They
share ideas and insights, but there isn't any one answer for "what Wiccans
believe," much less "What Neo-Pagans believe." There is often also a certain
sense of privacy, if not necessarily secrecy, related to their beliefs.
Of course, I could be wrong on some of this, and there are surely groups to
which some of my comments don't apply. Probably there are lots of people
here who could give you more accurate information. For some reason there
are lots of pagans with computers.
|
md
|
|
response 8 of 587:
|
May 20 14:30 UTC 1996 |
In the past, "pagan" has referred to all kinds of polytheism. Native
Hawaiians used to be called "pagans." I believe as the word "pagan"
is currently used, it refers to polytheistic pre-Christian Europeans.
Nigel Pennick and Prudence Jones, two pagan historians, wrote a book
called _A History of Pagan Europe_ that gives an excellent scholarly
overview. It touches on modern-day paganism, including the so-called
"neo-pagans."
|
wolfmage
|
|
response 9 of 587:
|
May 20 14:52 UTC 1996 |
Technically, according to the American Heritage prominently displayed on my
cluttered desk, a pagan is a person who is not a Christian,Moslem, or Jew.
Originally, it meant a country dweller.
Seems to be 'hip' to be a 'pagan' now.
|
marcvh
|
|
response 10 of 587:
|
May 20 15:47 UTC 1996 |
The distinction I've heard is that Paganism refers to pre-Christian
religions in Rome (and her empire) while areas outside the Roman
Empire may have their pre-Christian religions called Heathenism.
I usually don't hear that used to refer to religions of the Far East
(like Buddhism) and I'm not sure about Polynesian religions.
Neo-Paganism has people following most of those various non-mainstream
beliefs, including native American, various European pre-Christian, and
so on. As for how people come to be Pagans, there are a lot of reasons.
Religion has (IMHO) two basic aspects: a social aspect and a spiritual
aspect. Different people value each of these things differently in
mainstream religions like Christianity, and the same applies in
Neo-Paganism. Some people look for the social aspects; they're probably
best served by relatively open mainstream religions like the U-U
Church. I think most are looking for spirituality; they find that
conventional religion doesn't work for them but still look for
"something". There are some who are raised in some flavor of Paganism,
but I think it's something one needs to discover for one's self.
Not sure I'd agree that it's "hip" to be a Pagan. Lots of businesses
that wouldn't think twice about hiring somebody wearing a cross will
refuse to hire somebody wearing some Pagan symbols. If you're involved
in a bitter custody fight and it comes out that you're a witch, the
court is unlikely to think it's "hip." In most of America it's still OK
to discriminate against people with unconventional religious views.
One of the big things that has always turned me off about Christianity
is its doctrinal hypocrisy about oppression. Christians like to
emphasize themselves as the victims of oppression, emphasizing things
like the slavery of the Hebrews, Daniel in the Lion's Den (and the brief
historic interval where Romans persecuted Christians) and the killing of
John the Baptist and Christ. Yet Christianity has played the role of
the oppressor much more than the other way around. That is why it is
the dominant religion that it is today.
This is not something unique to Christianity; it's similar to the views
of American pioneers who moved west to invade Indian lands, destroy
their herds, break their treaties and destroy the native American way of
life, and yet the pioneers saw themselves as the ones being oppressed
and threatened by the natives. No doubt the church saw itself as
threatened by the vast number of witches it burned to death over the
centures. It was wrong.
I'm not sure at what age children should make religious decisions.
I'm of the belief that unless you truly question the religion you were
brought up with, you can never truly make belief in it your own. I
believe a lot of Christians are like that more or less out of inertia; I
doubt too many Neo-Pagans are like that.
|
dadroc
|
|
response 11 of 587:
|
May 20 16:47 UTC 1996 |
I find holidays strange. I would rather think about an equinox, solstess
or full moon. That makes me pagan. To pick out a special day is sort
of a silly way of saying history did not happen. Pick any country and
there are many days to be aware of. Pick any religion and you find the
same. Why value one over another?
|
marcvh
|
|
response 12 of 587:
|
May 20 18:47 UTC 1996 |
Considering most Christian holidays are basically Pagan holidays that
got co-opted (I mean, did Jesus decorate a pine tree? Was there a
bunny handing out colored eggs in the empty tomb?) it doesn't seem to
me being a pagan necessarily means holidays undergo a radical change. :-)
|
bubu
|
|
response 13 of 587:
|
May 20 21:30 UTC 1996 |
I must say that I am pleased at how well mannered this conversation is going..
It always seems that when people get together and discuss religion things go
bad..This is however refreshing...
|
kerouac
|
|
response 14 of 587:
|
May 20 22:25 UTC 1996 |
#12...True...christmas is basically the celebration of the winter solstice
that is
is pagan in origin. Jesus was not born in December, more likely in the
spring. Otherwise there would have been no shepherds....sheep dont go
go out to graze in the dead of winter. There are also few reputable
scientists who accept creationism, because the overwhelming amount of
scientific data indicates the world is many millions of years old and that
life on earth is an evolutionary process.
Also if adam and eve were the first people, it would have taken many
generations of incest to get any sort of a population. Eve didnt have any
daughters wso she would have had to bear the sons of cain and abel herself!
|
other
|
|
response 15 of 587:
|
May 20 22:49 UTC 1996 |
modern pagans are for the most part disaffected christians who still desire
ritual and spiritual practice, but who are no longer able or willing to put
faith in the teachings of a religion which they feel has betrayed them by
hypocrisy. this is my own perception based on extensive experience interacting
with numerous such people in a random, but completely unscientific manner.
|
beeswing
|
|
response 16 of 587:
|
May 20 23:00 UTC 1996 |
I realize some have used their Christitanity to oppress others, and I don't
agree with that. But to say that Christianity in itself is used to oppress
others is simply not fair.
And as I recall, ROmans used Chrstians as candles... as in setting them on
fire to be used as lights. That is not something to be taken lightly (ooh,a
pun.. sorry).
I refer to those online as pagans as those who hhave called themselves Pagans.
I don't mean it by "those who are't chrsitians are pagans".
Aaand... some may call the Christian moral code "outdated". But consider this:
if we didn't lie, steal, have sex before marriage, cheat, speak unkindly about
each other, and covet what we don't or can't have, wouldn't life be easier
for everyone? If we loved each other as we loved ourselves... how would our
lives be? And are these values even limited to Christianity?
|
marcvh
|
|
response 17 of 587:
|
May 20 23:25 UTC 1996 |
My goodness! Lighting somebody on fire just because you don't like
their religious beliefs? Thank goodness no Christian would ever do
that. Especially not in Salem, Massachusetts. And thank goodness no
Christian would ever play the pot calling the kettle black.
|
bruin
|
|
response 18 of 587:
|
May 20 23:36 UTC 1996 |
RE #17 Marcvh, the Salem "witches" were either hanged or stoned to death, but,
contrary to popular belief, they were not burned. (I'll bet a lot of people
are glad to hear that. NOT!)
|
drew
|
|
response 19 of 587:
|
May 20 23:53 UTC 1996 |
One of the most level-headed people that I have known is a Sabaean, and claims
to have witnessed events during the seances and other ceremonies that have
no physical explanation. He claims to have gone looking for things like hidden
wires and other signs of fraud, and found none.
My understanding of the effects of the gods, as described, is that of "good
(or bad) luck" most of the time, depending on whether one has found favor or
disfavor.
The afterlife belief is in reincarnation, which I understand to be like
rolling up another character in some cosmic role playing game. Supposedly,
each person is incarnated in order to "learn" something, and after enough
lives are lived, one goes on to some more advanced existence. There are also
spirits that hang around for a while without immediately being literally born
again.
Sabaeanism does not address the origin of Humanity or the universe, and does
not prescribe or proscribe any specific behavior; though there is an axiom
about what goes around, coming around.
For my part, the reincarnation bit would be nice to actually occur - it would
make longevity research unnecessary, for one thing - but I'm not convinced
enough of its reality to bet my life on it. (And sitting around on a cloud
strumming a harp doesn't really appeal to me, let alone being tossed into a
lake of fire.) Again, this person is one of the most sensible people that I
know of; but he *is* only a Huuuu-maaaan, and thus he can be fooled.
What I want to see, one way or another, is hard, objective, reproducible
evidence.
|
bjorn
|
|
response 20 of 587:
|
May 21 00:07 UTC 1996 |
I will respond to this item once, and only once. I am a Volsung, and though
I am not Christain I refuse to call myself Pagan for the simple fact that
there is hidden definition in the meaning of the word suggesting that such
people AND their religions are evil. While I will personally admit to being
evil, my religion is not.
As said prevoisly, a lot of us are people who used to be Christain but
felt the religion betrayed us - while this is certainly true in my case, there
are a few more factors. One of the more interesting was finding all those
nice little loopholes in the wording of the Bible alone. Secondly, I find
it hard to think of the Judeo/Cristian Yehweh/Jehovah as either an adult or
a mature god. I also had to attend a Fundamentalist Christian Missionary
School last year which was not fun.
Personally, considering the Crusades, the Spanish inquistion, and other
Conversion Campaigns - and also considering that some Christains place the
Bible where their brain is supposed to be - I consider it an immature and
self-destructive religion. Further, I see the practitioners needing to be
saved from themselves by a child god as immature
I do not really mean to rant and rave, but if that god dares to touch
me benifficially or harmfully - he dies. All gods can die - the rapture is
a cry for help - no worsippers = no power = no immortality. I have Christians
who will attest to that.
|
gregc
|
|
response 21 of 587:
|
May 21 00:31 UTC 1996 |
Bees, when I spoke of "outdated moral code" I was speaking of a system
that put "have sex before marriage" in the same category as "lie, cheat,
and steal", as you so vividly illistrated in your last reply.
The cathoolic church has evolved into something that is more like a
form of government than a religion. And like all governments, it's
purpose is to control people. At some point in the past, a very smart
someone figured out that the best way to control people was through
sex. Take humanitys most powerful and pervasive urge, and convince
everyone that it's only proper under a very strict set of rules.
Of course, very few people are going to be able to follow those rules,
but that's ok. The goal was not to make everyone follow the rules, the
goal was to make them feel guilty when they broke the rules, as most
normal people will eventually do. And then set yourself up as the
only authority that can absolve them of that guilt, and now you quite
litterally, have them by the balls. Pretty cute system Huh?
I also condemn the hypocrisy of a system that condemns homosexuality,
and other practices, because they are "not normal", and then turns
around and requires a vow of lifetime celibacy from all of it's clergy.
Go look up "normal" in the dictionary and then read this sentence
carefully: Lifetime celibacy is not normal.
|
gregc
|
|
response 22 of 587:
|
May 21 00:35 UTC 1996 |
Reponse #21 was in response to #16. I got up and walked away from the
keyboard for a couple hours and a whole bunch of people slipped in
ahead of me.
|
beeswing
|
|
response 23 of 587:
|
May 21 01:08 UTC 1996 |
Marcvh... just as it is wrong to use christians for candles, it is also wrong
to torture witches. Both are bad bad bad. But Chrsistians wer ein fact albeled
as witches and murdred also. It wasn't about Christianity as much as power,
and disenfranchisement of the ones who were "diffreent"-- such as women, and
the elderly.
I do NOT appreciate the slaps against Christianity I am seeing here... I don't
like anyone calling my faith (not religion, FAITH) outdated, immature, or
stupid. I started this item to ask why those who are pagans refer to
themselves aas such and why they chose to be Pagans. You can say you don't
support Christianity, and that is fine... but I am not attempting to diprove,
suvert, or tear down your beliefs. So please have the same respect for
others.
|
scott
|
|
response 24 of 587:
|
May 21 01:30 UTC 1996 |
(not to attack anybody, since I'm pretty neutral on religion, but I find that
when people tell me that they have the right religion and I should join, I
interpret that to mean "because, of course, your current beliefs are *wrong*.
I'm not accusing anybody of doing that in this item.)
|