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richard
Florida governor signs law to overturn court decision and keep vegetative woman alive Mark Unseen   Oct 27 02:28 UTC 2003

There is a case making headlines down in Florida, where a woman has 
been in a vegetative state since suffering a heart attack in 1990, and 
the Courts gave permission for her next of kin, her husband, to consent 
for the removal of her feeding tube.  The courts agreed with the 
doctors that this woman has no chance of recovery, that there was 
massive loss of oxygen to the brain when she had her heart attack, and 
that CAT scans show the brain has greatly reduced in size.  Her feeding 
tube was taken out and her body was to be allowed to die peacefully.  
But enter the conservative Florida legislature, which-- acting on 
behalf of this woman's parents-- tailored a bill specifically for her 
case that would take away the husband's right to act as her guardian.  
Florida governor Jeb Bush signed this bill, and the woman's feeding 
tube was reinserted.  

This article was in today's New York Times:

In Feeding-Tube Case, Many Neurologists Back Courts
By DONALD G. McNEIL Jr.

Published: October 26, 2003

 

The New York Times 

 

 
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t the center of the court battle over the immobile body of Terri 
Schiavo, the 39-year-old Florida woman kept alive by a feeding tube, is 
a videotape made by her parents. It lasts only minutes but has been 
played so many times on television and the Internet that it all but 
defines her.

On the tape, Mrs. Schiavo, propped up in bed, is greeted and kissed by 
her mother. She is not in the deep, unresponsive sleep of a coma. Her 
eyes are open, and she blinks rapidly but fairly normally. She seems to 
follow her mother's movements, but her mother's face is too close for 
that to be clear. Her jaw is slack and her mouth hangs open, but at 
moments its corners appear to turn up in a faint smile.

To many supporters of Mrs. Schiavo's parents, who say she should be 
kept alive on a feeding tube, the tape demonstrates that she can still 
think and react. But many leading neurologists say that it means no 
such thing, that the appearances of brain-damaged patients can be very 
misleading.

Florida courts have ruled, after hearing from several experts who 
examined her, that Mrs. Schiavo has been in a "persistent vegetative 
state"   an official diagnosis of the American Academy of Neurology   
since her brain was deprived of oxygen when she suffered a heart attack 
13 years ago. Her feeding tube was removed on Oct. 15, but it was 
reinserted six days later after the Florida Legislature gave Gov. Jeb 
Bush the authority to override the courts.

Patients in vegetative states may have open eyes, periods of waking and 
sleeping and some reflexes, like gagging, jerking a limb away from pain 
or reacting to light or noise. They may make noises or faces and even 
say words.

But they do not, according to academy criteria, show self-awareness, 
comprehend language or expressions, or interact with others.

A vegetative state "is the ironic combination of wakefulness without 
awareness," said Dr. James L. Bernat, a Dartmouth Medical School 
neurologist and past chairman of the academy's ethics committee. 

Mrs. Schiavo's parents and the conservative Christian groups working to 
keep her on the feeding tube insist that she is in a "minimally 
conscious state"   another official diagnosis. They note that on the 
videotape, her eyes appear to follow a silver balloon waved before them.

Her father, Bob Schindler, visited her on Thursday night and said later 
that she had made the sound "unh-unh," as if to say no, when he kissed 
her, and "unh-unh" again when he asked her if she wanted him to kiss 
her. He described that as a sign that she could hear and answer 
questions.

In 2001, Dr. Richard Neubauer, director of the Ocean Hyperbaric 
Neurologic Center in Florida, said in an affidavit that said he found 
Mrs. Schiavo "not in a vegetative state" and "at least semi-responsive 
to her environment." He was seeking to treat her by putting her in an 
oxygen-rich pressure chamber.

A famous case of "minimally conscious," said Dr. Michael P. McQuillen, 
a professor of neurology at the University of Rochester, was that of a 
woman who appeared vegetative but, on overhearing her sister on the 
phone making funeral arrangements for a favorite uncle, began to cry. 

Mrs. Schiavo is fed by tube and incapable of making decisions for 
herself. She cannot swallow, though her parents argue that with help 
she might be able to relearn swallowing so she could be spoon-fed. 

Early in Mrs. Schiavo's illness, her husband, Michael, sent her to 
California to have a nerve stimulator implanted, one neurologist said, 
but he later came to believe she would never recover.

Vegetative states become persistent, according to the neurology 
academy's criteria, after about three months, after which it is highly 
unlikely that they will end. Patients like Mrs. Schiavo whose brains 
have been starved of oxygen do worse than patients who suffer head 
trauma, neurologists say.

"Thirteen years is plenty long enough to tell," said Dr. Bernat, who 
said he had not examined Mrs. Schiavo or seen any videotapes. "Assuming 
she is in a vegetative state, I can say with medical certainty that 
there is no realistic hope that she'll recover."

Dr. Bernat was part of a large medical panel that in 1994 assessed 
thousands of patients' records and found that up to 35,000 Americans 
were in persistent vegetative states. 

Mrs. Schiavo's parents and a Web site, terrisfight.org, have 
cited "miracle recoveries" by people who supposedly woke up, speaking 
and moving, after years in comas.

Dr. Bernat said his 1994 panel looked into more than 70 "alleged late 
recoverers" and found that "there wasn't a single one that was 
verified, so I'm very skeptical."

Dr. Ron Cranford, a Minneapolis neurologist who was Dr. Bernat's 
predecessor on the academy ethics committee, examined Mrs. Schiavo as 
part of the original trial and testified in favor of her husband's 
request to discontinue feeding.

He was adamant that she would never get better, and he says he is 
furious about the popular videotape.

"She's vegetative, she's flat-out vegetative, there's never been a 
shred of doubt that she's vegetative, and nothing's going to change 
that," Dr. Cranford said in a telephone interview. "This has been a 
massive propaganda campaign, which has been very successful because it 
deludes the public into thinking she's really there."

Her eyes do not steadily track objects, he said, and when she appears 
to look at her mother or a camera for a moment, it is merely rapid eye 
movement.

More important, he said, "the CAT scans indicate a massive shrinkage of 
her brain, with its higher centers completely destroyed, which 
indicates irreversibility."

The Schiavo case is the kind of family fight that doctors treating 
brain-damaged patients say they dread. "In a case like this, you're 
between a rock and a hard place," said Dr. McQuillen of the University 
of Rochester.

He added that keeping Mrs. Schiavo alive artificially could be a burden 
on her.

For many terminally ill patients, he pointed out, "food is an abslute 
burden   it increases secretions and makes them uncomfortable."  


The woman's parents have put up a website to make their case that she 
should be kept alive, that she is responsive to them:

http://www.terrisfight.org/

What do you think?
107 responses total.
richard
response 1 of 107: Mark Unseen   Oct 27 02:39 UTC 2003

This case really upsets me.  I don't think the Florida legislature or 
Governor Bush had any business interceding in this matter.  This woman 
is brain dead, she is vegetative, and her brain is now greatly reduced 
in size.  What she was, her memories, her personality, is gone.  Her 
husband is her next of kin, and if the doctors, many doctors, have told 
him there is no hope of recovery, and that force feeding her body ad 
infinitum won't change things, I think he has/had every right to ask 
for her tube to be removed.

The parents seem to be particularly spiteful of the husband, because he 
got another girlfriend a few years ago and had a child with her.  I 
don't think this is relevant.  This woman has been in a vegetative 
state since 1990.  After years went by, it becomes obvious that there 
is no hope.  He had the right to go on with his life.  If I was this 
woman, I would not want my body kept alive when there is no hope of my 
recovery.  I would want my loved ones to get on with their lives.  the 
parents see their little girl, and she's alive and breathing.  But what 
they see is on the outside.  On the inside she's dead.  She died a long 
time ago.  Their daughter died when her brain died.  Her body is what 
is still alive.  And these conservative legislators, who drafted this 
emergency legislation, and Bush who signed it, seem to be reacting out 
of their religious beliefs, that only God should take a life and that 
the husband is an adulterer.  

I think the parents need to let their daughter go, and they need to 
respect that when she when she had her heart attack, and ended up in 
that hospital bed thirteen years ago in a coma, she was happily 
married, and her HUSBAND, not them, is the next of kin.  And if he 
said, "my wife wouldn't want her body kept alive", they ought to 
respect that and not say he's lying.  
other
response 2 of 107: Mark Unseen   Oct 27 04:02 UTC 2003

This is only further proof that we live in an age in which superstition 
dominates science as a foundation for policy and governance, effectively 
relegating science to merely the means to develop new products to mass 
market at large multiples of the manufacture and delivery costs.
klg
response 3 of 107: Mark Unseen   Oct 27 04:18 UTC 2003

re:  "her body was to be allowed to die peacefully."

Have YOU ever watched a person you love starve to death, Mr. richard????
aruba
response 4 of 107: Mark Unseen   Oct 27 04:26 UTC 2003

Well, that's pretty cynical.  I think it's a pretty sad sitution, and I
sympathize with all the people involved - it must be a dreadful choice to
have to make.  And the idea that the only way for her to die is to starve to
death must make it that much harder.

This is the downside of all the progress in medicine over the last century.

I'm with the husband.
richard
response 5 of 107: Mark Unseen   Oct 27 04:30 UTC 2003

#2..klg, read the new york times article I copied in #0...the doctors say that
feeding her body is MORE painful, that it forces her organs to work when there
is no cognitive brain function to supervise the work.  she is suffering more
by their feeding and keeping her body alive, then if they took out the tube
and just let her die.  Letting her die IS in point of fact the more humane
course of action.  Would you want to be kept alive in a state like that?  
klg
response 6 of 107: Mark Unseen   Oct 27 04:44 UTC 2003

Quotes from 10/20 Weekly Standard

"Michael (Schiavo) brought a medical malpractice case in which he 
promised the jury he would provide Terri with rehabilitaion and care for 
her for the rest of his life."

"Once the (damages) money was in the bank, Michael refused to provide 
Terri with any rehab."

"Rather than the funds going to pay for medical therapists to help her, 
as the jury intended, much if it instead paid lawyers that Michael 
retained to obtain the court order to end her care."

"(Michael) is engaged to be married and has had a baby with his fiancee, 
with another one on the way."

"Judge Greer ordered Terri dehydrated base on dubious testimony from 
Michael, his brother, and his brother's wife that Terri told them she 
did not want to be hooked up to tubes - something he never told the 
malpractice jury . . ."

"(R)ehabilitative therapy that could help her relearn to eat by mouth. . 
. (S)everal doctors and therapists have testified . . . she is a good 
candidate for tube weaning."


Might anyone else perhaps get the impression that something stinks here?
richard
response 7 of 107: Mark Unseen   Oct 27 06:48 UTC 2003

this woman has been comatose for THIRTEEN years.  She is not likely to ever
relearn anything.  The husband did get a settlement from the hospital to pay
for her care, but after that the doctors told him there was no point.  So he's
called a money grubber because he listened to the doctors?  And in as much
as this woman really died thirteen years ago, once years and years had passed
and doctor after doctor said there is no hope, why shouldn't he have moved
on and found other companionship?  I would hope she'd have loved her husband
enough that she'd want him to.

This woman is dead.  Her body is alive.  Her brain is shriveled up, her
memories are gone.  What she was is gone.  There comes a time when you have
to let go.

This is not an isolated case.  One article says there are 35,000 people
nationwide who have been in vegetative states for numbers of years.  I don't
mean this to sound cold, but there does come a time when the practical purpose
of keeping vegetative bodies alive is diminished.  It is a question of whether
the brain can recover, of whether the person that he/she was can ever come
back.  In this case, this woman suffered a massive loss of oxygen to the brain
when she had heart attack.  The doctors have known since he had her attack
that she wouldn't recover.  At some point, you must wonder whether keeping
such people's bodies alive when they have no chance of recovery is really
serving the patient's interests or is it serving the interests of family
members who simply want to keep the body alive so they can pray for miracles.
Medicine is based on science, you don't make medical judgements on the basis
of hoping for a future miracle.
tod
response 8 of 107: Mark Unseen   Oct 27 13:56 UTC 2003

This response has been erased.

janc
response 9 of 107: Mark Unseen   Oct 27 14:31 UTC 2003

Is this a good time to mention the virtues of writing a living will?
remmers
response 10 of 107: Mark Unseen   Oct 27 14:32 UTC 2003

Yes.
gull
response 11 of 107: Mark Unseen   Oct 27 14:38 UTC 2003

Re #3: It's extremely sad and unfortunate that our social and legal
structure is currently such that the only way to let someone in this state
die is to starve them.
bru
response 12 of 107: Mark Unseen   Oct 27 15:17 UTC 2003

I dont think there is any great solution to this case or any case where
someone is in such a state.

I think the husband was in the wrong, and that the parents are blinded by
love.  I hate that the Florida legislature got involved.

But I also do not know that starving her to death is the right thing to do.
slynne
response 13 of 107: Mark Unseen   Oct 27 16:14 UTC 2003


http://www.med.umich.edu/1libr/aha/umlegal04.htm
tod
response 14 of 107: Mark Unseen   Oct 27 17:17 UTC 2003

This response has been erased.

klg
response 15 of 107: Mark Unseen   Oct 27 17:30 UTC 2003

re:  "#7 (richard):  . . . I would hope she'd have loved her husband
enough that she'd want him to. . . . "

Mr. richard,
Did you hear the reports that shortly before the heart attack the woman 
told her parents she was considering a divorce???
klg
tod
response 16 of 107: Mark Unseen   Oct 27 17:43 UTC 2003

This response has been erased.

richard
response 17 of 107: Mark Unseen   Oct 27 19:17 UTC 2003

klg, that might be what the parents say but it doesn't matter.  Whether or
not the husband was faithful to her either while she was healthy and after
she was in a coma is irrelevant.  This matter should not be decided based on
the idea of passing judgement on the husband.  The husband is not the one who
is brain dead and in a vegetative state.  His wife is, and he is her next of
kin, and if he says that she said she'd want to die if she was in that
situation, and was not going to recover, the doctors and the courts should
feel obligated to respect that.  And they did respect that. It isn't the
doctors stopping this, but all those medical experts in the Florida
legislature who passed that bill and Jeb Bush who signed it.  
slynne
response 18 of 107: Mark Unseen   Oct 27 19:19 UTC 2003

re:#15 Nope, that doesnt matter at all. For one thing, her parents have 
a lot of motivation to lie about that. I am not saying that they *are* 
lying about that, just that it is possible. Even if they arent, she 
hadnt even started to get a divorce. I'll bet 90% of married people 
think about getting a divorce sometimes. It means nothing. 
albaugh
response 19 of 107: Mark Unseen   Oct 27 19:34 UTC 2003

I don't know what the signed-into-law is precisely about, but if the debate
is about who should decide what to do - since the patient currently cannot - 
then it's not always so cut & dried as "he's her husband, he gets to decide."
The courts are there to determine who is capable of acting in the best
interest of the patient.  To those who might argue that it's in the patient's
best interest to die, note that after that decision, there is no possibility
of anything ever being decided again for the patient.  As long as the patient
remains alive, there is some possibility that other future decisions can be
made.  It is a tough situation, made tougher by conflicting views of people
close to the patient, who ostensibly have the best interests of the patient
in mind.  There certainly is a large degree of benefit to the husband about
having the patient die, and that should warrant scrutiny about his motives.
slynne
response 20 of 107: Mark Unseen   Oct 27 19:56 UTC 2003

I agree that it is appropriate to bring the courts into this. However, 
the courts *have* decided. 
tod
response 21 of 107: Mark Unseen   Oct 27 20:14 UTC 2003

This response has been erased.

gull
response 22 of 107: Mark Unseen   Oct 27 21:20 UTC 2003

The courts decided, but apparently the legislature thought they knew better.
slynne
response 23 of 107: Mark Unseen   Oct 27 21:25 UTC 2003

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A21857-2003Oct26.html
tod
response 24 of 107: Mark Unseen   Oct 27 21:36 UTC 2003

This response has been erased.

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